Best ewe and ram combo for the following traits?

[yoki]

no not all , thats the pet/showing ones , my ewes would be no bigger than 70-80kg , there are two types some holstien barrel tall short coat types and some Frisian better shaped types , we imported them originally in the 90s to replace BFL on hill ewes , to bring strong maternal traits , the stupid ****s in the society are mainly hobby people and look no further than the show ring and markings (hence the size of some ) , we have kept the more moderate and commercial type looking to the future, there are similar flocks to ours out there if you do research and avoid the pet / sale ones .
Crossed with a blocky charollais they take some beating on growth rates and shape especially killed off the ewe

We've pretty much reached the numbers we want with the Zwartbles now (about 1/4 of the total breeding flock) so will start and be even more selective from now.

Strangely enough, that's an analogy I'd kind of formulated in my mind of the direction to go, more Friesian than Holstein.

I bought two Zwartbles tups this year, half-brothers and couldn't decide between them so bought them both ( ). They were just what I was looking for, and hopefully their lambs will reflect that, yet oddly the girl had had them at the regional show and sale a week or two previous and couldn't sell them.

Odd.

 

[yellowbelly]

What about starting with pet lambs so they come ready trained? Then aim to cull 75% based on how good mothers they are and kg of lamb from each ewe.

Not a great place to start, IMHO.

Cades are cades for a reason - their mother died/had mastitis/wouldn't have them/couldn't rear them/etc,etc.
Even if they're cades because they were a triplet, I'm not a big fan of the triplet gene - unless you've got ewes that milk out of 3 tits.

 

[andybk]

Not a great place to start, IMHO.

Cades are cades for a reason - their mother died/had mastitis/wouldn't have them/couldn't rear them/etc,etc.
Even if they're cades because they were a triplet, I'm not a big fan of the triplet gene - unless you've got ewes that milk out of 3 tits.

so many times in the past ive reared cades , then kept them, cos they look ok , often in the first draw of cull ewes , the penny dropped when i was topping up a few lambs and the mother (4t )came over for the bottle lol
cull cades unless decent pure terminal only ram lambs kept for growth etc

 

[z.man]

Fukdavano!

No problem

 

[Tim W]

so many times in the past ive reared cades , then kept them, cos they look ok , often in the first draw of cull ewes , the penny dropped when i was topping up a few lambs and the mother (4t )came over for the bottle lol
cull cades unless decent pure terminal only ram lambs kept for growth etc

You're getting soft...cades= cull, no exceptions

 

[tr250]

Of course, you could just go straight for easy lambing and a quality lamb, by using a decent Charollais in the first place…

Charallais is my breed of choice on texel x mules but they are probably naturally slightly wilder than most breeds but mainly I think it’s how you treat them if your a rattle a bucket person they are going to be quieter than if you prefer bike and huntaway to move them hence why the more hobby breeds run in small bunches tend to be quieter

 

[andybk]

You're getting soft...cades= cull, no exceptions

dont see why rams cant be used ,they would have to be good though

 

[Al R]

dont see why rams cant be used ,they would have to be good though

Problem with the mother = cull anything out of it.

 

[Tim W]

Problem with the mother = cull anything out of it.

especially if you're selling breeding stock

 

[andybk]

especially if you're selling breeding stock

still cant see how lack of milk in mother is culling offence in the ram lamb offspring if going for terminal production , fair enough if pure or breeding females to keep , most of my customers wont be keeping crosses , they already have suff x mules for hybrid vigour

 

[ringi]

Not a great place to start, IMHO.

Cades are cades for a reason - their mother died/had mastitis/wouldn't have them/couldn't rear them/etc,etc.
Even if they're cades because they were a triplet, I'm not a big fan of the triplet gene - unless you've got ewes that milk out of 3 tits.

That the reason I said "Then aim to cull 75%".

 

[neilo]

Problem with the mother = cull anything out of it.

Why is that relevant in a terminal sire?

 

[neilo]

You're getting soft...cades= cull, no exceptions

Surely the reason why they’re in the cade pen makes a difference, particularly in a terminal sire breed?

As an example of why your ‘no exceptions’ rule is far too simplistic, I had two lambs reared as cades 2 years ago. They were ET Charollais lambs, whose (Highlander) recipient mother had black bag mastitis three weeks into lactation. They did well on the machine, and the rest of the flush did well on their recipient mothers.
According to your ‘no exceptions’ rule, I should have hung them up, even though their genetics had nothing to do with the mastitis recipient ewe’s.

Likewise, lambing my pedigree Charolais ewe lambs, I will only ever leave one on the dam (to be reared without creep), with any others lifted for adoption or artificial rearing. According to your rule, I would have to cull those twin (& triplet ) lambs out of the hoggs?

Thank you, but I will continue to judge the merit of Cade lambs by their individual circumstances, rather than some ridiculous ‘all out’ rule.

 

[Tim W]

Cades are always weak constitutionally (not reared on mum)
They are the first to keel over under any kind of pressure
If you want to keep one and then sell/use it as breeding stock i think that's a large mistake ---maternal or terminal
I would never knowingly buy a sheep that was reared as a cade

Do those that sell cade lambs as breeding stock advertise them as '' nice rams ---reared as cades?''

 

[neilo]

Cades are always weak constitutionally (not reared on mum)
They are the first to keel over under any kind of pressure
If you want to keep one and then sell/use it as breeding stock i think that's a large mistake ---maternal or terminal
I would never knowingly buy a sheep that was reared as a cade

Do those that sell cade lambs as breeding stock advertise them as '' nice rams ---reared as cades?''

Nonsense. Why they be weak constitutionally if they’ve had adequate ewe colostrum, or better, been reared on mum until she befell an accident?
Cades can actually be reared properly, not just done on the cheap with some low solids cow milk, etc.

And yes, I usually point out if my terminal sire rams were reared as cades, along with the reason. Such detail is only really possible to discuss with on-farm selling I suppose, but I don’t recall anyone baulking after hearing it.

As posted above, I make decisions on cades based on individual animal’s reasons for being a Cade, not a blanket ‘all out’. I will obviously not retain those that came from problem ewes, etc.
Likewise, I will usually retain maternal X females from the Cade pen (having been tagged at birth), where they were lifted as triplets off ewes or twins off tegs. That was my decision to remove them to be reared properly, rather than leaving them to be dragged up.

 

[Moors Lad]

What about starting with pet lambs so they come ready trained? Then aim to cull 75% based on how good mothers they are and kg of lamb from each ewe.

What breed of ewes do you keep? Have you a big flock?

 

[Ysgythan]

Nonsense. Why they be weak constitutionally if they’ve had adequate ewe colostrum, or better, been reared on mum until she befell an accident?
Cades can actually be reared properly, not just done on the cheap with some low solids cow milk, etc.

And yes, I usually point out if my terminal sire rams were reared as cades, along with the reason. Such detail is only really possible to discuss with on-farm selling I suppose, but I don’t recall anyone baulking after hearing it.

As posted above, I make decisions on cades based on individual animal’s reasons for being a Cade, not a blanket ‘all out’. I will obviously not retain those that came from problem ewes, etc.
Likewise, I will usually retain maternal X females from the Cade pen (having been tagged at birth), where they were lifted as triplets off ewes or twins off tegs. That was my decision to remove them to be reared properly, rather than leaving them to be dragged up.

Some of our best mothers in the pures and crossbreeds have been bottle reared for all sorts of reasons. Some suckler men use dairy x cows and they are all hand reared! I’m sure there’s even trial work to show that the more fat is put down in the udder when young the less the adult cow milks.

 

[Aspiring Peasants]

Some of our best mothers in the pures and crossbreeds have been bottle reared for all sorts of reasons. Some suckler men use dairy x cows and they are all hand reared! I’m sure there’s even trial work to show that the more fat is put down in the udder when young the less the adult cow milks.

My wife looks after the pet lambs and although I forbid it every year she always manages to sneak a few into the gimmer lambs that are being kept. As long as they’re decent grown sheep they generally do fine. Can be useful to have a few in a bigger group that run to you, especially when rudding tups. I still get a kick out of seeing how good a mother a ewe (or heifer) can be when it wasn’t reared by its own mother

 

[Sheepfog]

Nonsense. Why they be weak constitutionally if they’ve had adequate ewe colostrum, or better, been reared on mum until she befell an accident?
Cades can actually be reared properly, not just done on the cheap with some low solids cow milk, etc.

And yes, I usually point out if my terminal sire rams were reared as cades, along with the reason. Such detail is only really possible to discuss with on-farm selling I suppose, but I don’t recall anyone baulking after hearing it.

As posted above, I make decisions on cades based on individual animal’s reasons for being a Cade, not a blanket ‘all out’. I will obviously not retain those that came from problem ewes, etc.
Likewise, I will usually retain maternal X females from the Cade pen (having been tagged at birth), where they were lifted as triplets off ewes or twins off tegs. That was my decision to remove them to be reared properly, rather than leaving them to be dragged up.

The difference between farming and ranching I don’t mind if people do or don’t keep pets as replacements, but I hate seeing lambs go hungry so will always lift triplets as a precaution and any lambs not filling up. If that’s because the dam hasn’t got enough milk she will be culled. Properly done pets can turn a decent margin.

For context, our ewes (mix of commercial and purebred Suffolks for ram selling) usually rear between 160-170% on the ewe, excluding any pets I’ve lifted.

Having said that, breeding ewes that rear triplets successfully is something that intrigues me, just not brave enough to try it yet!

 

[Al R]

The difference between farming and ranching I don’t mind if people do or don’t keep pets as replacements, but I hate seeing lambs go hungry so will always lift triplets as a precaution and any lambs not filling up. If that’s because the dam hasn’t got enough milk she will be culled. Properly done pets can turn a decent margin.

For context, our ewes (mix of commercial and purebred Suffolks for ram selling) usually rear between 160-170% on the ewe, excluding any pets I’ve lifted.

Having said that, breeding ewes that rear triplets successfully is something that intrigues me, just not brave enough to try it yet!

6 years ago I left 2 sets of triplets on 2 ewes, they weren’t great but did do a job, different breed now but last year 40-50 ewes reared their triplet lambs on grass only and did them well