Boris has to do a deal .....

[Danllan]

Typical Brexit whinging. It’s always someone else’s fault. No matter that those charlatans Farage and his clueless sidekick, Johnson, had no interest in solving the practical problems, it’s the remoaner’s fault. I really wonder if you lot can wipe your own backsides.

Hang on, you are still sulking about losing the referendum...

 

[Mek]

Utter crap, those who lost the referendum have failed democracy.

Edit: Should have written it's those who lost the referendum and won't accept it that have failed democracy.

So how long do you wait before deciding democracy has failed, 10years 20 years ? As its already been three years there surely has to be a limit. If Brexit is achieved in 20 years time ,is that democracy in action ?

 

[fudge]

Hang on, you are still sulking about losing the referendum...

I am not sulking? What gave you that idea? As a green voter I am quite used to having my views ignored. I stand by my point though. The leaders of the brexit project haven’t got any interest of making it work. Johnson in particular uses it to crow bar his way into No 10 then what? Recycles a deal that he could have voted for months ago. Total none entity.

 

[Danllan]

So how long do you wait before deciding democracy has failed, 10years 20 years ? As its already been three years there surely has to be a limit. If Brexit is achieved in 20 years time ,is that democracy in action ?

As should have been clear from my earlier post, I don't think 'democracy' per se does fail, it's rather that people fail in ensuring its success. Were you to ask if think that 'parliamentary democracy' has failed in this case, I would say that in great part it has; that the arrogance and priggishness of a number or MPs is far, far greater than anything I - rather naïvely - anticipated.

What you seem to be inferring is that if something that a majority want can be put off - by the losing minority - for long enough, it is invalidated - have I understood you correctly in this? If that, or something similar, is the case I would caution you to beware of the precedents you seek to set.

The recent adjudication by the Supremes has really put the remainers and those in Parliament seeking to avoid 'no deal' in a very difficult position should there be a majority one day to support 'no deal'. All there would need to be is a one line Bill supported by a majority telling the then PM to break off all negotiations with the EU, and he would have to do it...

I am not sulking? What gave you that idea? As a green voter I am quite used to having my views ignored. I stand by my point though. The leaders of the brexit project haven’t got any interest of making it work. Johnson in particular uses it to crow bar his way into No 10 then what? Recycles a deal that he could have voted for months ago. Total none entity.

You imply that the deal is, in its essentials, the same as that of TM. That indicates either profound dishonesty or ignorance because, as anyone who has read and understood both 'deals' can tell you, they are very different in the areas of importance. The fact that both agree that up is up and down is down does not support you either, all international trade deals of this kind are similar in almost all of their contents. But it is the few important aspects that matter most and have greatest effect and, in these, the two deals are worlds apart.

 

[fudge]

As should have been clear from my earlier post, I don't think 'democracy' per se does fail, it's rather that people fail in ensuring its success. Were you to ask if think that 'parliamentary democracy' has failed in this case, I would say that in great part it has; that the arrogance and priggishness of a number or MPs is far, far greater than anything I - rather naïvely - anticipated.

What you seem to be inferring is that if something that a majority want can be put off - by the losing minority - for long enough, it is invalidated - have I understood you correctly in this? If that, or something similar, is the case I would caution you to beware of the precedents you seek to set.

The recent adjudication by the Supremes has really put the remainers and those in Parliament seeking to avoid 'no deal' in a very difficult position should there be a majority one day to support 'no deal'. All there would need to be is a one line Bill supported by a majority telling the then PM to break off all negotiations with the EU, and he would have to do it...


You imply that the deal is, in its essentials, the same as that of TM. That indicates either profound dishonesty or ignorance because, as anyone who has read and understood both 'deals' can tell you, they are very different in the areas of importance. The fact that both agree that up is up and down is down does not support you either, all international trade deals of this kind are similar in almost all of their contents. But it is the few important aspects that matter most and have greatest effect and, in these, the two deals are worlds apart.

Johnson’s deal kicks the can of future relationship with Europe down the road in exactly the same way as May’s did. He just used opposition to her deal for personal political gain. IIRC you have already established my dishonesty.

 

[Hindsight]

Johnson’s deal kicks the can of future relationship with Europe down the road in exactly the same way as May’s did. He just used opposition to her deal for personal political gain. IIRC you have already established my dishonesty.

I assumed the Conservative Party plan having failed to get a deal or no deal in place for October 31st is to kick the Future Relationship into the New Year meanwhile have the General Election to replace the Parliamentarians with more biddable MPs to his cause who will vote in favour of a harder relationship and possible no deal at end of 2020.

Or have I totally misread the situation.

Bear in mind always I am not that up on all of this as my constituency will return a Conservative MP regardless and thus my vote is pretty null and void. And as such I am stuck in the back of my metaphorical airplane waiting on the pilots and ground controllers to land the stricken craft!

 

[fudge]

Who knows, their over riding ambition is to be in office. I don’t think they have a “vision” of the future. That’s the problem with not taking responsibility for your actions. Their whole message is it’s someone else’s fault and the other lot are worse than us, and that’s it!
Vote Journalist!

 

[Danllan]

Johnson’s deal kicks the can of future relationship with Europe down the road in exactly the same way as May’s did. He just used opposition to her deal for personal political gain. IIRC you have already established my dishonesty.

Ah, straw clutching now. But quite right, it does set out the withdrawal and lays the basis for the trade negotiations. Other than a clean-break, what possible and legal alternative is there to this scenario i.e. leaving and then negotiating? We know that the EU will not - in fact, I think, can not constitutionally - conduct trade negotiations with a member state; so what you choose to call 'kicking the can down the road' (a good bit of hyperbole) is nothing more than a necessity.

I assumed the Conservative Party plan having failed to get a deal or no deal in place for October 31st is to kick the Future Relationship into the New Year meanwhile have the General Election to replace the Parliamentarians with more biddable MPs to his cause who will vote in favour of a harder relationship and possible no deal at end of 2020.

Or have I totally misread the situation.

Bear in mind always I am not that up on all of this as my constituency will return a Conservative MP regardless and thus my vote is pretty null and void. And as such I am stuck in the back of my metaphorical airplane waiting on the pilots and ground controllers to land the stricken craft!

Obviously I am coming from the other side of this particular argument, but I had that same situation when I lived in a safe Labour seat; and this is the reason we need PR. It is simply undemocratic to diminish the value of most votes and amplify the value of a few, as the current FPTP system does.

I've thought long and hard about the matter, and the only failings I can find with simple PR are that MPs are not directly and individually accountable to a definite electorate and that a party's central organisation would take power from constituencies. Nonetheless, I think that the pros outweigh the cons to a significant degree.

 

[The Agrarian]

@Danllan On the matter of failed democracy. You've said many times you think democracy is the best system available to us, and better than a dictatorship. However, there is a very big difference between electing representatives to make decisions on complex issues for us, and being asked to make those decisions ourselves.

I'm of the opinion that the first failure of democracy in this saga was the asking of the public what they would think on matters far beyond the average of their understanding.

This is, after all, why we have a parliament. To gather the facts, debate them, and to come to carefully considered decisions. It's why every organisation has a structure.

 

[Danllan]

@Danllan On the matter of failed democracy. You've said many times you think democracy is the best system available to us, and better than a dictatorship. However, there is a very big difference between electing representatives to make decisions on complex issues for us, and being asked to make those decisions ourselves.

I'm of the opinion that the first failure of democracy in this saga was the asking of the public what they would think on matters far beyond the average of their understanding.

This is, after all, why we have a parliament. To gather the facts, debate them, and to come to carefully considered decisions. It's why every organisation has a structure.

I have also qualified my support for 'democracy' many times... I think that everyday matters and emergency and security decisions have to be left to the elected representatives who are part of the executive. It is only upon matters of fundamental importance to us, in both a national and personal sense, that I think we should resort to direct democracy, in the form of referenda.

Most issues are 'grey', but some are starkly black or white and I believe that we - the people - are mature enough to decide upon these ourselves. They are not myriad, they are very few in number, perhaps only half a dozen or less, and they need only be visited generationally - this is no great burden to take from a parliament and place upon the people. Let us take the matter of abortion as an example...

I believe in choice for women in this matter, I can rationalise this to the nth degree, but my belief is also tied to a fundamental attachment to freedom of choice and self determination. I can rationalise that too but, at base, it is a deep feeling I hold, it just 'feels' right. I accept entirely that others 'feel' the opposite, and I respect their right to do so and many of the arguments that they put forward to support their viewpoint. But I still disagree with them.

Clearly, in such a situation, there is very little - probably no - room for compromise. This being the case, it seems rational to me that the matter is decided by the people, rather than by 'representatives' who may well not represent their constituents' views. And the majority will should become the law.

The current situation here in GB is that women may have an elective abortion up to a given stage of a pregnancy, I agree with this. It should be apparent that there is nothing to stop the opponents of abortion from not having abortions. It should also be apparent that the opposite is not the case, if abortion were to be made illegal nobody could choose to have one.

The EU matter is similar in this regard, we are either in it or out of it. And, again, if we are out of it there is nothing to stop those who like it from being a part of it, it will still be there and will no doubt welcome them. But, if we are in, there is no such 'free UK' that we who do not like the EU can turn to. The matter is black and white and, as has been empirically proven, we know that in this matter most of the 'elected representatives' in parliament do not represent their constituents' views. Hence the need for a referendum and the need for its result to be respected.

 

[capfits]

Ex EU ambassador fears the present PM is either blinding the population with rubbish about a trade deal or/and is delusional about achieving one.

Johnson sowing seeds of 'biggest Brexit crisis yet', warns Sir Ivan Rogers

Ex-EU ambassador says PM’s ‘strategy errors’ will make good trade deal harder to achieve

www.theguardian.com

 

[capfits]

Looks like the prime minister was not only blinding the population, but himself and the nodding pollyannas that are the Conservative benches.
Let's break the law in a limited manner.
May did not get it done and lost credibility as a consequence and her premiership.
How can anyone back this Prime Minister?

 

[fudge]

Looks like the prime minister was not only blinding the population, but himself and the nodding pollyannas that are the Conservative benches.
Let's break the law in a limited manner.
May did not get it done and lost credibility as a consequence and her premiership.
How can anyone back this Prime Minister?

We read that Tory MPs have a WhatsApp group called “what f*** is going on?” . Maybe it should be “why are we doing f*** all?”

 

[Ashtree]