Breading a Beltex cross Charolais Tup?

[oddjobjen]

Hi.
so after several years of buying in various types of tups to put on my mules, I really struggle to keep any condition on the tups after they’ve done their job.. until an accident happened.. a blue textel we‘d been given had a Tup lamb off a beltex x charolais Tup. We didn’t give it any feed other than it’s mothers milk and grass.. it grew into a beaut. My son persuaded me to use it. He fathered lots of lambs and didnt lose an ounce of weight. Lambs were ok but not brilliant. So I am now thinking of buying a couple of really good quality ewes and breeding my own Tups. At least this way I will know they’ve not been drip fed corn from birth, incapable of surviving 1000ft hill farm.
I am thinking a cross between Charolais and beltex or something similar..
thoughts please.. also which way round? What breed should the ewe be etc?
sorry for the long winded description. Thought itd be better to explain my train of thought..

 

[M-J-G]

Hi.
so after several years of buying in various types of tups to put on my mules, I really struggle to keep any condition on the tups after they’ve done their job.. until an accident happened.. a blue textel we‘d been given had a Tup lamb off a beltex x charolais Tup. We didn’t give it any feed other than it’s mothers milk and grass.. it grew into a beaut. My son persuaded me to use it. He fathered lots of lambs and didnt lose an ounce of weight. Lambs were ok but not brilliant. So I am now thinking of buying a couple of really good quality ewes and breeding my own Tups. At least this way I will know they’ve not been drip fed corn from birth, incapable of surviving 1000ft hill farm.
I am thinking a cross between Charolais and beltex or something similar..
thoughts please.. also which way round? What breed should the ewe be etc?
sorry for the long winded description. Thought itd be better to explain my train of thought..

Which ewe out of Char and Beltex, that's a bit choosing between sunburn and a punch in the face, I suppose a Charollais ewe would be more capable of lambing to a Beltex than a Beltex ewe is of lambing to anything.

If you get them lambed and reared a Beltex X Char will be a good enough ram, but I found in the past that Char and BFL in the same sheep can lead to very bare lambs, that was when we were putting Char over Mules, a ¼ less Char might help that, but then a lot of Beltex are pretty pink these days too.

 

[Jerry]

I’m sure @neilo wilp have an interesting view on this….

 

[Hill Ground]

I worry the top spec ewes you think of buying will have been looked after the same as the rams your trying to replace, and have the same high maintainance requirements!!

You might find you need to feed these ewes pretty hard just to get them to stand still, and to breed any tups to meet your expectations I think you may have to feed them well to.

In my humble opinion mature weight of the tup is fairly irrelevant. For your terminal sire you want them to killing weight ASAP. Pick your best shaped, fasted growing tup lamb, don't feed him, and don't stress to much if he's never a monster.

Your shearers will thank you if nothing else!!!

 

[neilo]

I worry the top spec ewes you think of buying will have been looked after the same as the rams your trying to replace, and have the same high maintainance requirements!!

You might find you need to feed these ewes pretty hard just to get them to stand still, and to breed any tups to meet your expectations I think you may have to feed them well to.

In my humble opinion mature weight of the tup is fairly irrelevant. For your terminal sire you want them to killing weight ASAP. Pick your best shaped, fasted growing tup lamb, don't feed him, and don't stress to much if he's never a monster.

Your shearers will thank you if nothing else!!!

Absolutely. Big mature weights just make for late maturing lambs and high birth weights. Fast growth to slaughter weight, then a tailing off to lay down fat (finish) is the ideal, although less impressive to view in the ram paddock or sale ring.

 

[neilo]

If the OP is intent on breeding Charollais x Beltex rams, they should obviously use a Charollais ewe, to have any hope of getting the lamb out easily. However, they will then need to feed the ewe & lamb well, as she won’t be very good at rearing it, unless as a single.

Also be prepared to only get one half decent crossbred for every 4 born. The variation from crossing two such diverse types of sheep is huge, but the best of the progeny will be crackers. How much variation there is in the next cross, I wouldn’t like to hazard a guess as I’ve ever been tempted to use one.

I’ve bred a few from my Charollais ewes in the past, but don’t bother now. The very best are no better confirmation than the best pure Charollais, their growth is well behind and they’re a lot heavier through the shoulder. The ‘also rans’, of which there are plenty, will be behind in most respects.

Those selling those crosses at decent money are all feeding as heavily as they do their pure sheep, which is presumably the type that the OP is trying to avoid.

 

[tr250]

I’d personally forget the beltex bit and use a nice texel ewe and put a charalais on that. We breed our own pure texels but put a charalais on them as ewe lambs for easier lambing and they come out nice. Whatever you buy try and run it round the field 3 times and buy whichever is huffing and puffing the least

 

[Aspiring Peasants]

Hi.
so after several years of buying in various types of tups to put on my mules, I really struggle to keep any condition on the tups after they’ve done their job.. until an accident happened.. a blue textel we‘d been given had a Tup lamb off a beltex x charolais Tup. We didn’t give it any feed other than it’s mothers milk and grass.. it grew into a beaut. My son persuaded me to use it. He fathered lots of lambs and didnt lose an ounce of weight. Lambs were ok but not brilliant. So I am now thinking of buying a couple of really good quality ewes and breeding my own Tups. At least this way I will know they’ve not been drip fed corn from birth, incapable of surviving 1000ft hill farm.
I am thinking a cross between Charolais and beltex or something similar..
thoughts please.. also which way round? What breed should the ewe be etc?
sorry for the long winded description. Thought itd be better to explain my train of thought..

If I've understood you correctly your good tup lamb would only have been 1/4 Charollais and 3/4 Beltex/texel. I think you would find a 50:50 version would give you more inconsistency in the lambs. I have used a beltex x Charollais across continental ewes and mules and got good lambs off the continentals but very inconsistent results off mules. Too many lambs came with dark heads and poor confirmation, also surprisingly woolly. I keep tups for my own use for the reasons you have stated but just use a mixture of Texel and Beltex, you will get more consistent white faced lambs out of mules with this cross.

 

[unlacedgecko]

I’d personally forget the beltex bit and use a nice texel ewe and put a charalais on that. We breed our own pure texels but put a charalais on them as ewe lambs for easier lambing and they come out nice. Whatever you buy try and run it round the field 3 times and buy whichever is huffing and puffing the least

Imagine asking the ram seller if you can chase his pride and joy tup mob round the field with a dog?

 

[Skintagain]

Don’t like cross bred tups on mules too much variation you want pure imo
Texel on mules

their daughters to Charley for fat or texel again for breeding

beltex on 3/4 (not enough milk for Charley lambs usually)

 

[andybk]

If you get them lambed and reared a Beltex X Char will be a good enough ram, but I found in the past that Char and BFL in the same sheep can lead to very bare lambs, that was when we were putting Char over Mules, a ¼ less Char might help that, but then a lot of Beltex are pretty pink these days too.

thats because the charollais is a (dishley) leicester x southdown , so your getting 2 hits of leicester with a mule ,
below is main os mouton charollais page

The Charollais sheep breed as it appears today is the result of a selection closely linked to the economic history of its region of origin.

At the end of the 18th century , the region extending from the Morvan massifs to the Charollais valleys and the Bresse plain, had a varied sheep population, called "Morvandelle", whose main outlet was the supply of meat from Paris. .

With the rise of the wool industry , the new objective of the breeders was to improve the quality of the wool, hence the imports of Merinos, which were however not crossed with these local populations. However, from 1820

, the economic malaise in the wool industry again encouraged farmers to turn to meat production. Thus, the importation of Leicester breeders (commonly called Dishley) developed and crosses with local livestock made it possible to produce a more homogeneous sheep. From that time , the name "Mouton Charollais" was mentioned on certain markets.

At the beginning of the 20th century, the Charollais sheep, also known as "Mouton de Pays", formed the majority of the region's livestock. After the First World War, the arrival of Southdown seriously reduced the number of Country Sheep. But from the 1950s, the search for heavier and less fatty carcasses gave the advantage to Mouton de Pays.

In 1962 , some breeders decided to organize the first competition of the breed which took place in Palinges in Saône-et-Loire and the “Mouton de Pays” was definitively baptized the “MOUTON CHAROLLAIS”. The same year, these breeders opened the Genealogical Book of the breed.

In 1963 took place in Palinges in Saône et Loire the first competition of the breed which was definitively baptized "Mouton Charollais".

In 1973 the Association of Charollais Sheep Breeders became UPRA (National Unit for Breed Selection and Promotion). The path to national competitions and official shows was then open to the Charollais sheep, present at the Concours Général Agricole de Paris since 1972.

In 1974 the breed was recognized by the Ministry of Agriculture.

In 2008 the UPRA was transformed into a Mouton Charollais OS (Selection Body) following a reform initiated by the Ministry of Agriculture in 2006.



Started from little in 1963, the Charollaise breed is currently one of the first French breeds in industrial crossing and has a herd of more than 400,000 head in France, including more than 6,000 ewes in selection.

 

[neilo]

thats because the charollais is a (dishley) leicester x southdown , so your getting 2 hits of leicester with a mule ,
below is main os mouton charollais page

The Charollais sheep breed as it appears today is the result of a selection closely linked to the economic history of its region of origin.

At the end of the 18th century , the region extending from the Morvan massifs to the Charollais valleys and the Bresse plain, had a varied sheep population, called "Morvandelle", whose main outlet was the supply of meat from Paris. .

With the rise of the wool industry , the new objective of the breeders was to improve the quality of the wool, hence the imports of Merinos, which were however not crossed with these local populations. However, from 1820

, the economic malaise in the wool industry again encouraged farmers to turn to meat production. Thus, the importation of Leicester breeders (commonly called Dishley) developed and crosses with local livestock made it possible to produce a more homogeneous sheep. From that time , the name "Mouton Charollais" was mentioned on certain markets.

At the beginning of the 20th century, the Charollais sheep, also known as "Mouton de Pays", formed the majority of the region's livestock. After the First World War, the arrival of Southdown seriously reduced the number of Country Sheep. But from the 1950s, the search for heavier and less fatty carcasses gave the advantage to Mouton de Pays.

In 1962 , some breeders decided to organize the first competition of the breed which took place in Palinges in Saône-et-Loire and the “Mouton de Pays” was definitively baptized the “MOUTON CHAROLLAIS”. The same year, these breeders opened the Genealogical Book of the breed.

In 1963 took place in Palinges in Saône et Loire the first competition of the breed which was definitively baptized "Mouton Charollais".

In 1973 the Association of Charollais Sheep Breeders became UPRA (National Unit for Breed Selection and Promotion). The path to national competitions and official shows was then open to the Charollais sheep, present at the Concours Général Agricole de Paris since 1972.

In 1974 the breed was recognized by the Ministry of Agriculture.

In 2008 the UPRA was transformed into a Mouton Charollais OS (Selection Body) following a reform initiated by the Ministry of Agriculture in 2006.



Started from little in 1963, the Charollaise breed is currently one of the first French breeds in industrial crossing and has a herd of more than 400,000 head in France, including more than 6,000 ewes in selection.

Looks like the Frenchies have gone backwards since that photo was taken.

 

[andybk]

Looks like the Frenchies have gone backwards since that photo was taken.

i agree , some elements have lost cover , and saggy backs an issue , but feet and teeth have got a lot better thanks to the irish buyers , the meat and growth genetics are still there though in abundance , they still produce very good milking ewes if you give a bit of shape,
the southdown covered types (tight coats) are still popular with some breeders, its finding them easily thats the hard work

 

[Nithsdale]

I’d personally forget... ...it and use a nice texel....

Slight edit there for you, and we can close the thread.

 

[Northeastfarmer]

One of my favourite crosses is the char x beltex

 

[M-J-G]

thats because the charollais is a (dishley) leicester x southdown , so your getting 2 hits of leicester with a mule ,
below is main os mouton charollais page

The Charollais sheep breed as it appears today is the result of a selection closely linked to the economic history of its region of origin.

At the end of the 18th century , the region extending from the Morvan massifs to the Charollais valleys and the Bresse plain, had a varied sheep population, called "Morvandelle", whose main outlet was the supply of meat from Paris. .

With the rise of the wool industry , the new objective of the breeders was to improve the quality of the wool, hence the imports of Merinos, which were however not crossed with these local populations. However, from 1820

, the economic malaise in the wool industry again encouraged farmers to turn to meat production. Thus, the importation of Leicester breeders (commonly called Dishley) developed and crosses with local livestock made it possible to produce a more homogeneous sheep. From that time , the name "Mouton Charollais" was mentioned on certain markets.

At the beginning of the 20th century, the Charollais sheep, also known as "Mouton de Pays", formed the majority of the region's livestock. After the First World War, the arrival of Southdown seriously reduced the number of Country Sheep. But from the 1950s, the search for heavier and less fatty carcasses gave the advantage to Mouton de Pays.

In 1962 , some breeders decided to organize the first competition of the breed which took place in Palinges in Saône-et-Loire and the “Mouton de Pays” was definitively baptized the “MOUTON CHAROLLAIS”. The same year, these breeders opened the Genealogical Book of the breed.

In 1963 took place in Palinges in Saône et Loire the first competition of the breed which was definitively baptized "Mouton Charollais".

In 1973 the Association of Charollais Sheep Breeders became UPRA (National Unit for Breed Selection and Promotion). The path to national competitions and official shows was then open to the Charollais sheep, present at the Concours Général Agricole de Paris since 1972.

In 1974 the breed was recognized by the Ministry of Agriculture.

In 2008 the UPRA was transformed into a Mouton Charollais OS (Selection Body) following a reform initiated by the Ministry of Agriculture in 2006.



Started from little in 1963, the Charollaise breed is currently one of the first French breeds in industrial crossing and has a herd of more than 400,000 head in France, including more than 6,000 ewes in selection.

I take it the Southdown in them is the reason that the Charollais is prone to leaving more lambs with tufty heads than other clean headed breeds are.

 

[andybk]

I take it the Southdown in them is the reason that the Charollais is prone to leaving more lambs with tufty heads than other clean headed breeds are.

yes partly , and why the smaller blocky chars leave better and more consistent finished lambs over the big tall donkeys that have been hard fed to get the shape for sale , of course lots of other breeds have been put into them since arriving here ,
It would be absolute sacrilege to do the same in france they are incredibly loyal to their own breeds .

 

[Skintagain]

One of my favourite crosses is the char x beltex

I had a char x tex and his lambs were away quick and they were bloody good lambs he just had that spark as well as good growth. His lambs topped the market a few occasions out of tex mules with some very stiff competition. My char beltex sired lambs could never catch his lambs as they were slower growers

 

[Ysgythan]

Hi.
so after several years of buying in various types of tups to put on my mules, I really struggle to keep any condition on the tups after they’ve done their job.. until an accident happened.. a blue textel we‘d been given had a Tup lamb off a beltex x charolais Tup. We didn’t give it any feed other than it’s mothers milk and grass.. it grew into a beaut. My son persuaded me to use it. He fathered lots of lambs and didnt lose an ounce of weight. Lambs were ok but not brilliant. So I am now thinking of buying a couple of really good quality ewes and breeding my own Tups. At least this way I will know they’ve not been drip fed corn from birth, incapable of surviving 1000ft hill farm.
I am thinking a cross between Charolais and beltex or something similar..
thoughts please.. also which way round? What breed should the ewe be etc?
sorry for the long winded description. Thought itd be better to explain my train of thought..

Pick framey, narrow headed pure Texel ewes. Ideally not from a flock that does ET, or not ET born at least. Put whatever tup you want on them. Maybe a blockier darker headed Charollais with more wool cover.

 

[dogandstick]

Looks like the Frenchies have gone backwards since that photo was taken.

Same could be said about some of their UK counterparts