Daughter getting into art and photography at school most pics been with phone and iPad but from what I have seen she has a good eye for it, any recommendations on a good entry camera something with a bit of range or that can be added to with lenses, would looking out for something 2nd hand older model etc be better value? Any suggestions on cameras to look out for?
Camera recommendations
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Chasingmytail
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- Newport, SE Wales
I am very much an amateur: for serious stuff you could consider a good compact or bridge camera. I would only consider a 2nd hand if its bought from a camera shop thats tested and cleaned it. Cameras with all this digital wizardry has loads of issues. I had issue with my Olympus PEN and cost me £120 to sort out. Better buying with warranty. Size is important anything bulky where the lens is big becomes a nightmare to carry. It then becomes having to carry an additional huge bag and on a day out can be a nuisance then like others you opt for a compact. Changing lens is very professional and extremely expensive. Youd be better going with a bridge/compact camera around £300 seeing how she gets on can change from manual setting to auto and arty scenes. Options to buy additional lens/flash however we are talking $$$$ Watch out for battery life, you will need to buy an additional battery pack (cost in) quality case.
I think if you blind her with too much science much of these camera are far to technical and advanced but usually for the entry level these can be simpler. But lens changing etc is really for someone who has deep understanding or had training so I wouldnt consider that at this stage.
Something like
Canon PowerShot is retro and simple very much like my PEN or
Sony Cyber-shot WX220 (cheap)
It also depends on how much you want to spend. Assume max £300? I have seen friends run out and get all these flash cameras to never use them as when they actually have to programme and carry they ditch for the simpler compact style.
I would recommend going to a professional shop and getting some advice and coming away with what you want.
http://www.techradar.com/news/photography-video-capture/cameras/best-camera-1271079
https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/gallery/2012/nov/16/photography-top-ten-cameras-dan-chung
Hope this helps a little
I think if you blind her with too much science much of these camera are far to technical and advanced but usually for the entry level these can be simpler. But lens changing etc is really for someone who has deep understanding or had training so I wouldnt consider that at this stage.
Something like
Canon PowerShot is retro and simple very much like my PEN or
Sony Cyber-shot WX220 (cheap)
It also depends on how much you want to spend. Assume max £300? I have seen friends run out and get all these flash cameras to never use them as when they actually have to programme and carry they ditch for the simpler compact style.
I would recommend going to a professional shop and getting some advice and coming away with what you want.
http://www.techradar.com/news/photography-video-capture/cameras/best-camera-1271079
https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/gallery/2012/nov/16/photography-top-ten-cameras-dan-chung
Hope this helps a little
fermerboy
Member
- Location
- Banffshire
@Cowabunga is the expert on cameras here.
Cowabunga
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- Location
- Ceredigion,Wales
Something reasonably small but very capable? Something she can learn with and grow as she learns. Question is, does she want to learn, rather than just take snaps?
If so, then maybe look at the Panasonic LUMIX GX80.
http://www.trustedreviews.com/reviews/panasonic-lumix-gx80
This has a viewfinder, which I say is essential for a keen photographer, touchscreen, huge choice of available quality interchangeable lenses from several brands, including used choice.
Great image stabilisation for slow shutter speeds. It’s also great for video, with 4K and 1080p. Stop motion? No problem. Great panorama shots. Good quality compact kit lens comes with it that will do as a starter lens and it allows the camera to be carried in a small bag or large pocket.
Easy for a beginner to use but with all the controls anyone could need for the future. Large[ish] sensor that, with the right technique, can produce great bokeh for portraits etc, especially when mated with a bright prime lens like a 45mm f1.8.
Easy image transfer wirelessly to a phone or pad, plus remote control from either device. It’s all there.
Best time to buy is nearer Christmas for all cameras, when ‘double cash-back’ deals, and other incentives are commonly offered.
Be aware that good cameras are not particularly cheap. Think £500 as a realistic base point for a worthwhile kit including a spare battery [£15], a 32GB Class 10 U3 card, cheap wrist strap and a small Gorillapod maybe. Possibly a bit more money until Christmas incentives are launched.
I have an SLR, which is a bigger camera, for sale. A Sony A57, which is certainly a very capable camera, including for video, which I don’t use so much these days. Immaculate condition with two telescopic, two prime lenses, two batteries and a bag for it all, ready to shoot, for £500.
New, the two primes alone cost nearly £300.
It’s not as convenient a camera to carry around casually, although not anything like as big and heavy as some.
http://www.photographyblog.com/reviews/sony_a57_review
If so, then maybe look at the Panasonic LUMIX GX80.
http://www.trustedreviews.com/reviews/panasonic-lumix-gx80
This has a viewfinder, which I say is essential for a keen photographer, touchscreen, huge choice of available quality interchangeable lenses from several brands, including used choice.
Great image stabilisation for slow shutter speeds. It’s also great for video, with 4K and 1080p. Stop motion? No problem. Great panorama shots. Good quality compact kit lens comes with it that will do as a starter lens and it allows the camera to be carried in a small bag or large pocket.
Easy for a beginner to use but with all the controls anyone could need for the future. Large[ish] sensor that, with the right technique, can produce great bokeh for portraits etc, especially when mated with a bright prime lens like a 45mm f1.8.
Easy image transfer wirelessly to a phone or pad, plus remote control from either device. It’s all there.
Best time to buy is nearer Christmas for all cameras, when ‘double cash-back’ deals, and other incentives are commonly offered.
Be aware that good cameras are not particularly cheap. Think £500 as a realistic base point for a worthwhile kit including a spare battery [£15], a 32GB Class 10 U3 card, cheap wrist strap and a small Gorillapod maybe. Possibly a bit more money until Christmas incentives are launched.
I have an SLR, which is a bigger camera, for sale. A Sony A57, which is certainly a very capable camera, including for video, which I don’t use so much these days. Immaculate condition with two telescopic, two prime lenses, two batteries and a bag for it all, ready to shoot, for £500.
New, the two primes alone cost nearly £300.
It’s not as convenient a camera to carry around casually, although not anything like as big and heavy as some.
http://www.photographyblog.com/reviews/sony_a57_review
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Cowabunga
Member
- Location
- Ceredigion,Wales
All cameras are a compromise of one kind or another. Cheap compact cameras with fixed lenses are fast becoming extinct. Phone cameras have taken over that market. They really have.
Large sensor ‘advanced’ fixed lens compacts, with or without zoom, are expensive again, costing anywhere between £500 and £1000 and are aimed at ‘enthusiasts’. Personally I prefer the interchangeable lens cameras because they have dust removal systems and if necessary they can be manually cleaned by taking the lens off, which is done literally in a second. Fixed lenses, especially ones that zoom, tend to eventually get dust on the sensor which requires specialist cleaning and which often isn’t worth paying for. Plus of course there is the possibility of adding extra lenses as one needs and can afford, which can be kept for the next new camera. As such, the lenses are far more important than the body, once the system has been chosen initially.
Most enthusiasts end up with several cameras eventually. There's something to be said for a so-called bridge camera, which may have a bigger body with a fixed lens, usually with a good zoom range. I would have one for the zoom range, because a complete good bridge can cost less than an equivalent zoom lens alone for many cameras. A long zoom lens can itself cost £500 or more, so a versatile bridge camera can make perfect sense for many people. Even the expensive bridge cameras with larger sensors, like the Sony RX10 are quite popular these days.
http://www.trustedreviews.com/reviews/sony-cyber-shot-rx10-iv
Yes, that is a top of the range bridge and, yes, it does cost £1750, just to put all the previous camera prices into perspective.
Large sensor ‘advanced’ fixed lens compacts, with or without zoom, are expensive again, costing anywhere between £500 and £1000 and are aimed at ‘enthusiasts’. Personally I prefer the interchangeable lens cameras because they have dust removal systems and if necessary they can be manually cleaned by taking the lens off, which is done literally in a second. Fixed lenses, especially ones that zoom, tend to eventually get dust on the sensor which requires specialist cleaning and which often isn’t worth paying for. Plus of course there is the possibility of adding extra lenses as one needs and can afford, which can be kept for the next new camera. As such, the lenses are far more important than the body, once the system has been chosen initially.
Most enthusiasts end up with several cameras eventually. There's something to be said for a so-called bridge camera, which may have a bigger body with a fixed lens, usually with a good zoom range. I would have one for the zoom range, because a complete good bridge can cost less than an equivalent zoom lens alone for many cameras. A long zoom lens can itself cost £500 or more, so a versatile bridge camera can make perfect sense for many people. Even the expensive bridge cameras with larger sensors, like the Sony RX10 are quite popular these days.
http://www.trustedreviews.com/reviews/sony-cyber-shot-rx10-iv
Yes, that is a top of the range bridge and, yes, it does cost £1750, just to put all the previous camera prices into perspective.
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fermerboy
Member
- Location
- Banffshire
See I told you!!!
Cowabunga
Member
- Location
- Ceredigion,Wales
I'm no expert, just a very enthusiastic enthusiast.
Here are a couple of classic water shots I took last week with the GX80. Both handheld, noting that the slow shutter speed would not be possible handheld that crisp if not for image stabilisation.
These are crops of the full image for illustration. The top one is at 1-2000th of a second at f3.5
This one is at 1-8th at f22 [yes there's a bit of diffraction, but of no consequence]. See the difference in the water?
Which you prefer is up to you. I'm just illustrating a bit of what is possible quite easily with almost any tidy camera with a kit lens here.
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Thanks I'm pretty crap when it comes to taking photos but she left her file on kitchen table other day so had a browse through and i was well impressed. Just by coincidence last week was talking with the mrs while looking over to bird feeders across the yard @80m away as a sparrowhawk was sat on it and we were just saying we could have some good photos if we had a half decent camera. So with christmas gonna come round far too quickly i thought maybe start to have a look and get some ideas. I understand it will be a compromise of spec and budget but she's a sensible lass and will look after it (the worry just being the 2 younger sisters wanting to "play" with it). She probably has a good idea what she would like but I'm just after an idea of what to maybe steer her towards as a starting point that can be added too in the future if she keeps the interested.
Cowabunga
Member
- Location
- Ceredigion,Wales
At 80m away and if you want to isolate the birdy, you need either a medium telephoto lens of excellent quality and crop the image to taste, or/and you need a more telephoto lens still. The standard kit lenses you get with interchangeable lens cameras will not be suitable for this particular shot unless you get far nearer the subject.
For a micro4/3 camera like the Panasonic and Olympus, such a lens, a 100-300 or 75-300 will cost at least £375 new.
A good bridge camera would be more suitable but it would need a bright sunshiny day to get an acceptable image. A common bridge, the FZ72 will cost less than £300. Just don't expect better pictures or capability than a phone for portraits or in poor light or at night. A better bridge, like an FZ330 with better lens and features will cost around £450 currently and this camera has quite a following and is the subject of a YouTube tutorial by Graham Houghton at the moment. It could be a good learner/enthusiast choice actually. At present, if a bridge camera is the desired type and without breaking the bank, the FZ330 is the one to buy. Its no a camera to add to later though. A good DSLR or a mirrorless such as the GX80 or Olympus E-M10Mk2 or 3 would be examples of 'system cameras' that are designed to grow [as a system]. Olympus menu is more complex and difficult than most for a learner I would say.
For a micro4/3 camera like the Panasonic and Olympus, such a lens, a 100-300 or 75-300 will cost at least £375 new.
A good bridge camera would be more suitable but it would need a bright sunshiny day to get an acceptable image. A common bridge, the FZ72 will cost less than £300. Just don't expect better pictures or capability than a phone for portraits or in poor light or at night. A better bridge, like an FZ330 with better lens and features will cost around £450 currently and this camera has quite a following and is the subject of a YouTube tutorial by Graham Houghton at the moment. It could be a good learner/enthusiast choice actually. At present, if a bridge camera is the desired type and without breaking the bank, the FZ330 is the one to buy. Its no a camera to add to later though. A good DSLR or a mirrorless such as the GX80 or Olympus E-M10Mk2 or 3 would be examples of 'system cameras' that are designed to grow [as a system]. Olympus menu is more complex and difficult than most for a learner I would say.
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Cowabunga
Member
- Location
- Ceredigion,Wales
Thought you might be interested in seeing some of the kit mentioned above.
The camera is the GX80 with its kit lens 12-32mm. To the right is a 45mm f1.8 To the left is a telescopic 100-300 lens f4 to f5.6, all placed relative to the iPhone 5.
Taken with a Panasonic G6 using flash just now and then transferred wirelessly direct to the phone which I’m using now to compose and post this to this here social media
EDIT from desktop
Well it worked fine. If I can do it anyone can.
If I was to take that shot again I would close down the camera's aperture [the hole in the lens] a fair bit so that not only the camera was in focus but also the nearer big lens and iPhone plus the mouse in the background. Conversely if I wished to isolate the camera or any other single depth plane in the image while leaving the foreground and background well out of focus, I'd open the aperture wide open and ideally use a lens capable of f1.8 or f1.4 wide open.
Here are examples using the small 45mm lens seen above.
If you look carefully at the last picture you may notice that the focus is on his eye and that the back of his ear and shoulders are already slightly out of focus, while the lady in grey behind him is well out of focus. He has been isolated in the image.
The camera is the GX80 with its kit lens 12-32mm. To the right is a 45mm f1.8 To the left is a telescopic 100-300 lens f4 to f5.6, all placed relative to the iPhone 5.
Taken with a Panasonic G6 using flash just now and then transferred wirelessly direct to the phone which I’m using now to compose and post this to this here social media
EDIT from desktop
Well it worked fine. If I can do it anyone can.
If I was to take that shot again I would close down the camera's aperture [the hole in the lens] a fair bit so that not only the camera was in focus but also the nearer big lens and iPhone plus the mouse in the background. Conversely if I wished to isolate the camera or any other single depth plane in the image while leaving the foreground and background well out of focus, I'd open the aperture wide open and ideally use a lens capable of f1.8 or f1.4 wide open.
Here are examples using the small 45mm lens seen above.
If you look carefully at the last picture you may notice that the focus is on his eye and that the back of his ear and shoulders are already slightly out of focus, while the lady in grey behind him is well out of focus. He has been isolated in the image.
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Chasingmytail
Member
- Location
- Newport, SE Wales
Not sure of your daughters age but I really wouldnt spend more than £300 on a camera. What with breakages, chucking a bag. lose of interest etc.
Personally I would start small and cheap then as she leans more then you can progress. I suppose there is a difference between taking nice pics to art college/photography standards. Agree with all above.
Personally I would start small and cheap then as she leans more then you can progress. I suppose there is a difference between taking nice pics to art college/photography standards. Agree with all above.
Cowabunga
Member
- Location
- Ceredigion,Wales
I respectfully disagree. Small is what she's got already. There's absolutely no point in getting a camera that will do no better than a phone camera apart from some zoom. It is just pointless and a waste of money and puts people off more than anything through frustration both at the image quality and features to take innovative interesting images.
Today's young people, the smartphone and tablet generation, tend to be far more technically savvy than previous generations, so something that isn't technically proficient and doesn't challenge them, soon loses their interest in many cases. Obviously every person is different.
So you are absolutely right that if given to a person that doesn't respect and appreciate the camera and its possibilities in creating beautiful images, that's another avenue for wasting money.
I would keep the camera small though, because otherwise it will not be carried about regularly, which will be a bit of a waste and great pity. The fate of many DSLR's is to gather dust on someone's shelf, mostly because it is too much bother to carry a big camera around. A large camera may or may not come a lot later. Lots of people who are experienced keen photographers are now actually downsizing for that very reason.
If contemplating a new camera that costs less than £300, might as well spend it on an iPhone SE which has a camera built in but does so much more. Its camera is as good or better than most standard run of the mill compact cameras apart from lacking an optical zoom. A dedicated camera really should offer more than that in my humble opinion.
The option of buying used is valid of course. I have a surplus Fuji X20, which is an advanced compact camera with a fixed manual zoom lens that's excellent. It actually cost £400 plus extras some four years ago and comes with all extras and original box, including two new batteries. As new. Here's a copy of a relatively recent post of mine with references to the X20
………………………………….
It really is a super little camera with a bright f2.8 lens. Also a rangefinder style optical viewfinder with overlayed information. Three batteries and mains charger. Original box and virtually indistinguishable from new.
This is where you'll find info on it and you can download the brochure on the right hand side
https://www.fujifilm.eu/uk/products/digital-cameras/model/x20
https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/fujifilm-x20/
Download the manual here. http://www.fujifilm.com/support/digital_cameras/manuals/x/#x_compact_camera
It is a silver and black model. Comes with the lens hood, which is unused. Original lens cap. A delightful and satisfying camera with many useful features like silent mode for discrete use in concerts etc.
Price? £195. Not cheap but it's not a cheap camera. Good value though at less than half what it cost new plus the extras including a padded bag and 16 GB card.
PS The batteries are very small. It also does very good video but it does get hot after 15 minutes of continuous shooting, which I've only done once.
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@Chasingmytail I understand what your saying but @Cowabunga last post is kinda spot on with my thoughts, she is currently using what she has to its limits,
Yes its gonna be a big outlay but she may put some of her own money towards it to get something that she would be happy with. I'd much rather pay a bit more on something that she would enjoy and use than buy her tat presents that she has no interest in. Having some of her own savings invested might just add that bit of respect to look after it better and something with a bit of quality will hopefully always have a second hand value to a certain degree if after her school/course finishes she does lose interest or becomes more interested and wants to step up further. I think i need to sit down show her this post and find out what she really wants.
Its maybe not right to say it but she is a bit of a geek and does like to be challenged.
Yes its gonna be a big outlay but she may put some of her own money towards it to get something that she would be happy with. I'd much rather pay a bit more on something that she would enjoy and use than buy her tat presents that she has no interest in. Having some of her own savings invested might just add that bit of respect to look after it better and something with a bit of quality will hopefully always have a second hand value to a certain degree if after her school/course finishes she does lose interest or becomes more interested and wants to step up further. I think i need to sit down show her this post and find out what she really wants.