CF Fertilisers

[DrWazzock]

I don’t think high gas prices are anything like the whole story.
Wouldn’t they just increase the price of fertiliser and put the ball in our court if it was purely down to gas prices? After all, foreign imports are struggling for transport and also face the same high gas prices globally, so if CF raised the prices of fertiliser they’d still remain competitive and could still make a profit.
I’d suspect what’s more likely is the plants are old and tired and have been run down through lack of investment and also there are too many people in the chain wanting a cut. If the gas supplier owned a large part of the fertiliser production business then there wouldn’t be a middleman to go bust overnight.
Just as with other fundamental products such as steel and coal they just arent considered vital to the nations strategic interests anymore. They have been left out for the vultures and now when we realise we need them they are merely skeletons stripped of flesh. The spivs who have done this then hold us to ransom.
A shocking dereliction of duty by the government in my view. Zero strategy for primary industries and over reliance on imports combined with eco fascism and an out of sight out of mind policy has got us where we are. And of course “global capitalism” which has no concern at all but for its chief executives.

 

[DrWazzock]

Its called just in time production, it is how the worlds manufacturers operate today

It used to be called sailing too close to the wind.

 

[DrWazzock]

Another factor to consider is how much more expensive it is and will become to run a fertiliser plant in the U.K. compared to a backwater abroad. It all points one way, sadly.

 

[delilah]

Time for government to FORCE a demerger of the ownership of all the links in the UK food chain.

edited that for you. Market share is the root of all evil.

 

[fieldfarmer]

They have only become so big because there is no other competition in terms of other AN manufacturers in the UK- Norsk Hydro (Yara) shut down their AN factory at Immingham years ago and the huge cost and likely planning restrictions on any would be new AN factory being built in the UK means there won't be competition to dilute their current position; If the fact they produce so vital a commodity that it's deemed to be in the UK national interest to our Government then they should become stakeholders on have a direct say in how it is controlled but that just won't happen- plus with the green agenda, AN is going to become ever more undesirable so if say 1 of the 2 factories gets closed for pure commercial reasons, what happens to those customers currently buying all the CO2 that it used to produce as a by-product?
In the short term the Government should consider providing an immediate subsidy to CF to cover the gap between the high gas price and the commercial AN value to enable AN and effectively Co2 production to resume.

So you want to give them a subsidy equal to the profit they are making on pre contracted cheap gas? The high gas prices are only effecting them at the moment in as much as its far simpler for them to sell their cheap contracted gas back to the supplier than actually use it for what it was bought for.

 

[BrianV]

edited that for you. Market share is the root of all evil.

Funny because I would have thought a level playing field with your main competition is the deciding factor, if you load eco charges on UK manufacturing then it becomes uncompetitive & unviable compared with the EU, exactly the same problem which will have the same result as you are proposing with ELMS!!

 

[neilo]

Time for government to FORCE a demerger of the ownership of the UK production facilities. The Monopolies and Mergers Commission failed to understand the importance of allowing the merger in the first place, time to make good on that horrendous mistake now.

If only we’d all voted that nice Mr Corbyn in. He’d have had all the utilities back under State/Party control by now, all the private homes repossessed, and be ready to nationalise the fertiliser plants.

That’s assuming the State owned farms were still allowed to use fertiliser of course.

 

[Hindsight]

They have only become so big because there is no other competition in terms of other AN manufacturers in the UK- Norsk Hydro (Yara) shut down their AN factory at Immingham years ago and the huge cost and likely planning restrictions on any would be new AN factory being built in the UK means there won't be competition to dilute their current position; If the fact they produce so vital a commodity that it's deemed to be in the UK national interest to our Government then they should become stakeholders on have a direct say in how it is controlled but that just won't happen- plus with the green agenda, AN is going to become ever more undesirable so if say 1 of the 2 factories gets closed for pure commercial reasons, what happens to those customers currently buying all the CO2 that it used to produce as a by-product?
In the short term the Government should consider providing an immediate subsidy to CF to cover the gap between the high gas price and the commercial AN value to enable AN and effectively Co2 production to resume.

Looks to me that Ammonium Nitrate is the By Product old fella. CO2 is by far the most important product coming out of Billingham and Ince. Not seen a government minister or the News media that bothered about a lack of Ammonium Nitrate but by goodness the whole UK media and retailers are on about CO2.

No subsidy here fella to produce AN fert. Any government subsidy should be clearly in public benefit to produce CO2. That is the item the nation is panicking about.

 

[Hindsight]

So you want to give them a subsidy equal to the profit they are making on pre contracted cheap gas? The high gas prices are only effecting them at the moment in as much as its far simpler for them to sell their cheap contracted gas back to the supplier than actually use it for what it was bought for.

Do we know that is happening? Have CF confirmed sale of hedged positions? Or is that speculation? Intrigued.

 

[fieldfarmer]

Do we know that is happening? Have CF confirmed sale of hedged positions? Or is that speculation? Intrigued.

"Word of mouth", but from within the fert trade. I can't see cf buying on the spot market either though so I doubt there storing gas now.

 

[teslacoils]

Govt two weeks ago - we need to cut co2 emissions and it's all farmers fault.

Govt today - it's s disaster we've got no co2. Mumble mumble something about farmers.

 

[teslacoils]

Also govt - we live in a global world where we can get stuff from overseas, so a single domestic producer is fine

Govt - please, will someone sell us something?

 

[teslacoils]

Previous govt 2018 - we've learnt lessons from almost running out of gas.

Govt today - clearly we learnt no lessons.

 

[teslacoils]

Anyone see a pattern here?

 

[tepapa]

At the end of the news reports they, quickly mention, that some fizzy drinks may not be available.
I bet the general public will be more worried that coka cola, monster and beer will be in short supply rather than if there are chickens or veg in the supermarket.

 

[2wheels]

Anyone see a pattern here?

aye they are a bunch of clowns.

 

[PSQ]

Anyone see a pattern here?

2012 - Commodity prices spike, and food prices double leading to the Arab Spring uprisings and millions rioting 'on your telly'.

2022 - Fertiliser shortages lead to food shortages, commodity price spikes and food prices doubling, and rioting on your street.

The British media are either playing this down to prevent panic buying, or they really are completely f**king stupid oblivious to the severity of the situation.

 

[Hindsight]

2012 - Commodity prices spike, and food prices double leading to the Arab Spring uprisings and millions rioting 'on your telly'.

2022 - Fertiliser shortages lead to food shortages, commodity price spikes and food prices doubling, and rioting on your street.

The British media are either playing this down to prevent panic buying, or they really are completely f**king stupid oblivious to the severity of the situation.

But food is found in Waitrose and online in Ocado. What have these things called farmers got to do with my weekly shop or delivery? As for the media playing it down, c'mon PSQ that was a tongue in cheek comment!! When has the Daily Wail or Sexpress ever played anything down and not purposefully made a mole hill into a mountain if the chance arose. But I was pleased today to see the 'threat' to Xmas coming through in the media with fear no Turkeys for Xmas. Used to be the first Xmas fear story wasn't until end of October - but now September. Bit like taking a side bet when will see the first Xmas decs for sale in TESCO.

 

[teslacoils]

Don't worry. More lessons will be learnt. Good thing it's 20 degrees and not two degrees outside. 52 percent UK electric this morning is from burning gas.

 

[DrWazzock]

How long before reduced pig and poultry throughput impact U.K. feed grain prices? We are all exposed to this. There are no winners
The irony is the demand for chicken and pork is still there, but we are struggling to meet it through no fault of farmers. Yes everybody had been trying to tell farmers how to do their job but hadn’t been doing their’s.
Another thing that’s come to light is there is apparently no management of the transition from fossil to renewable fuels. So fossil fuel production is being cut before renewable capacity or more nuclear is in place.