Compulsory EID Cattle Tagging – YES OR NO?

[milkloss]

I'd say so

EID tagging, helps enable all data from cattle through to killing to be available to everyone involved.

The store producer could then monitor which strains, breeds, lines etc to concentrate on in future, and to focus on the end product.

It may even enable commercial raw data to be fed through for EBVs without the need for pens, paper, staff to punch in data etc. which is highly inefficient.

@mo! dont get me wrong, I agree with this post above. What I get worried about is technology getting flashed across peoples eyes and getting convinced it’ll be some sort of panacea for beef producers. I fear making it compulsory will remove market forces and introduce huge regulatory cost and personal gain for the few individuals that get given the chance to develop/control the system. Unnecessary costs and hoops for the system to work. Just look at the sheep ARAMS farce.

Pen and paper could still be used and data inPutted into a modified cts database by the laggards of us and the innovators could use all the tools they feel they need to spend their money on in order to zap the data on the system. As you know this hopefully would reduce costs and streamline the system for the laggards later on. Don’t forget though that this system is open to abuse whichever way the data gets there.

One thing I would suggest is first tag is electronic, maybe the eid part at cost of manufacture, and if it falls out then the owner does NOT have to replace with eid. Yes, this would make the system fail but would highlight the main potential problem from the outset imo. A tag is just a tag whatever you put on it. The only way to be sure of who an animal is is dna testing.

Apologies for the rather curt reply earlier, was trying to feed the child breakfast, a rather messy experience.

 

[mo!]

@mo! dont get me wrong, I agree with this post above. What I get worried about is technology getting flashed across peoples eyes and getting convinced it’ll be some sort of panacea for beef producers. I fear making it compulsory will remove market forces and introduce huge regulatory cost and personal gain for the few individuals that get given the chance to develop/control the system. Unnecessary costs and hoops for the system to work. Just look at the sheep ARAMS farce.

Pen and paper could still be used and data inPutted into a modified cts database by the laggards of us and the innovators could use all the tools they feel they need to spend their money on in order to zap the data on the system. As you know this hopefully would reduce costs and streamline the system for the laggards later on. Don’t forget though that this system is open to abuse whichever way the data gets there.

One thing I would suggest is first tag is electronic, maybe the eid part at cost of manufacture, and if it falls out then the owner does NOT have to replace with eid. Yes, this would make the system fail but would highlight the main potential problem from the outset imo. A tag is just a tag whatever you put on it. The only way to be sure of who an animal is is dna testing.

Apologies for the rather curt reply earlier, was trying to feed the child breakfast, a rather messy experience.

I sympathise about the child feeding, two dropped at breakfast club before 8.

The consultation that I have been involved with has highlighted in the strongest terms that any new system has to be open to the lowest common denominator. It should also allow those who are willing to embrace technology to benefit. The consultants are coming from a position of no knowledge which I see as a great asset, looking in from a completely fresh angle and listening to "stakeholders".

Any system is open to abuse by those who wish to abuse it. While tag swapping may not be widespread I am sure it happens, and in one case have seen it happen. One of the main benefits to a new system would hopefully be a more up to date and accurate database. One carrot that was suggested would be to remove the 6 day rule for farmers using electronic recording of movement as their movements would be closer to real time and so easier to track in case of disease outbreak.

 

[Gulli]

I sympathise about the child feeding, two dropped at breakfast club before 8.

The consultation that I have been involved with has highlighted in the strongest terms that any new system has to be open to the lowest common denominator. It should also allow those who are willing to embrace technology to benefit. The consultants are coming from a position of no knowledge which I see as a great asset, looking in from a completely fresh angle and listening to "stakeholders".

Any system is open to abuse by those who wish to abuse it. While tag swapping may not be widespread I am sure it happens, and in one case have seen it happen. One of the main benefits to a new system would hopefully be a more up to date and accurate database. One carrot that was suggested would be to remove the 6 day rule for farmers using electronic recording of movement as their movements would be closer to real time and so easier to track in case of disease outbreak.

How will eid tags stop tag swapping?

A place I worked in nz had eid tags that you could scan and then assign a tag number to on the handset which linked to the parlour computer. Which was handy as they used to stop working on a regular basis.

 

[slackjawedyokel]

Apart from eid being useless to me, the other reason I would not like to see it being made compulsory is that that implies sanctions if everything is less than perfect when you get an inspection. Maybe 2 or 3 tags fail to read and I get a large fine (or a reduction in my future subsidy if any).

Does the industry really need another stick for pen-pushers to hit farmers with?

 

[gone up the hill]

I sympathise about the child feeding, two dropped at breakfast club before 8.

The consultation that I have been involved with has highlighted in the strongest terms that any new system has to be open to the lowest common denominator. It should also allow those who are willing to embrace technology to benefit. The consultants are coming from a position of no knowledge which I see as a great asset, looking in from a completely fresh angle and listening to "stakeholders".

Any system is open to abuse by those who wish to abuse it. While tag swapping may not be widespread I am sure it happens, and in one case have seen it happen. One of the main benefits to a new system would hopefully be a more up to date and accurate database. One carrot that was suggested would be to remove the 6 day rule for farmers using electronic recording of movement as their movements would be closer to real time and so easier to track in case of disease outbreak.

Cattle movements are already recorded electronically via BCMS now without EID tags so that's no carrot!

If they want/suggesting electronic movement reporting of sheep as well that means every sheep/cattle farmer will have to invest in a reader/ software and then you can bet your bottom dollar that all the cheap readers etc currently on the market will disappear to be replaced by readers/ software costing £1000/1500 +.

And what will they do with all the people that don't want to/ cannot use this software/ readers? ban them from keeping sheep/cattle because that is what it sounds like could well happen!

Who is running this consultation Mo and how did you get involved??

 

[Agrivator]

https://www.scoteid.com/Public/Documents/Bovine_EID_numbering.pdf

Have things moved on since this was published?

 

[Chae1]

We use eid tags in all our cattle and I think it's a great management tool.

Register all calves with it. No more writing it down in notebook then typing it all into computer to send to bcms. Just do data transfer from scanner and send file.

For movements just scan all cattle as they go up race to load on float select location and send files. This sends it to scoteid and updates movement books.

Can also create groups as you send them away to grass and put bull to groups and when you take them out. This lets you record which bull was with which group and can monitor bulls performance.

Veterinary treatments. When scanning them just set how much of each treatment they are getting and scan animal as it goes through crush and it records treatment, batch number etc.

Poor performing cows can be identified in office by checking wean weights and slaughter details of previous calves. You can then put a warning against that cow so reminds you to cull her.

Record weights of finishing animal and dlwg. Useful for selecting animals for slaughter and predicting when they will have reached max weight.

 

[milkloss]

We use eid tags in all our cattle and I think it's a great management tool.

Register all calves with it. No more writing it down in notebook then typing it all into computer to send to bcms. Just do data transfer from scanner and send file.

For movements just scan all cattle as they go up race to load on float select location and send files. This sends it to scoteid and updates movement books.

Can also create groups as you send them away to grass and put bull to groups and when you take them out. This lets you record which bull was with which group and can monitor bulls performance.

Veterinary treatments. When scanning them just set how much of each treatment they are getting and scan animal as it goes through crush and it records treatment, batch number etc.

Poor performing cows can be identified in office by checking wean weights and slaughter details of previous calves. You can then put a warning against that cow so reminds you to cull her.

Record weights of finishing animal and dlwg. Useful for selecting animals for slaughter and predicting when they will have reached max weight.

What equipment and software do you use? As much as I sound like a naysayer I can see and would like to be able to reap the benefits one day.

 

[Chae1]

What equipment and software do you use? As much as I sound like a naysayer I can see and would like to be able to reap the benefits one day.

Shearwell. Psion reader.

 

[dannewhouse]

why don't they stop producing non Eid tags? it would then drive down the cost of Eid if its being used a lot more?
does it matter that there would be 2 eid tags in an animal?
I don't bother with button or metal tags anymore just put 2 large adult, I'm debating using management style next?

 

[Chae1]

The buttons containing eid data aren't specific to animal. Just scan the eid tag and rf number comes up on scanner. Find the animal on scanner and assign code on scanner to animal.

 

[M-J-G]

We use eid tags in all our cattle and I think it's a great management tool.

Register all calves with it. No more writing it down in notebook then typing it all into computer to send to bcms. Just do data transfer from scanner and send file.

For movements just scan all cattle as they go up race to load on float select location and send files. This sends it to scoteid and updates movement books.

Can also create groups as you send them away to grass and put bull to groups and when you take them out. This lets you record which bull was with which group and can monitor bulls performance.

Veterinary treatments. When scanning them just set how much of each treatment they are getting and scan animal as it goes through crush and it records treatment, batch number etc.

Poor performing cows can be identified in office by checking wean weights and slaughter details of previous calves. You can then put a warning against that cow so reminds you to cull her.

Record weights of finishing animal and dlwg. Useful for selecting animals for slaughter and predicting when they will have reached max weight.

It can cut out the vast majority of paperwork that so many farmers moan about taking up so much of their time.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

It can cut out the vast majority of paperwork that so many farmers moan about taking up so much of their time.

Maybe they like the paperwork in crap weather.... ?

Some very good points above, both for and against.

One thing is the particular ease of data transfer, purely for interests sake I have sent a few files off to Michael (the young guy we bought our steers from) and he's noticed quite a few interesting trends as he knows which bulls ran with which mobs.
(Also he's offered me many more calves earlier for next year as ours are a good 110kg heavier than their cousins, but that's just bragging.)

Would I have gone to the trouble if it involved scanning or photocopying paper?
No, because that would take time, and effort, where as this required me asking him his email and sending it when I weigh.
I likely wouldn't even bother with individual DLWG if it involved a whiteboard or clipboard... that just puts my hourly pay rate down as they run together as it is.

Not compulsory, not forced, just a benefit to all concerned... he gets free feedback and we get to benefit from our supplier progressing in the future.

All for an extra $1.20 per animal?
For an extra 110kg of beef through better pasture management, soon pays for a magic wand IMO, that's pretty much my margin doubled if you want to look at it from that perspective.

Still have no idea why it's illegal to use birth ID in an EID, 'maybe they like the misery' too?
Thats fundamental fu.ckwittism IMO

For interests sake, do you have the metal/brass tags?
What do they have on them?
Eid is just the replacement of the brassie over here.

 

[Chae1]

I still manage to hide in the office on a day of bad weather.

So no need to worry about that.

Ours are plastic buttons they go in with the larger tag containing management tag. So large tag comes in from back of ear and eid on front. This provides 4 bits of information on one tag.

 

[mo!]

Cattle movements are already recorded electronically via BCMS now without EID tags so that's no carrot!

If they want/suggesting electronic movement reporting of sheep as well that means every sheep/cattle farmer will have to invest in a reader/ software and then you can bet your bottom dollar that all the cheap readers etc currently on the market will disappear to be replaced by readers/ software costing £1000/1500 +.

And what will they do with all the people that don't want to/ cannot use this software/ readers? ban them from keeping sheep/cattle because that is what it sounds like could well happen!

Who is running this consultation Mo and how did you get involved??

Read my post again.

Readers and software don't need to cost anything like a grand.

Banning farmers who don't want to go electronic has been absolutely ruled out by all interested parties.

I engage with some of the organisations that you despise, I have an interest so was asked to participate.

 

[exmoor dave]

Read my post again.

Readers and software don't need to cost anything like a grand.

Banning farmers who don't want to go electronic has been absolutely ruled out by all interested parties.

I engage with some of the organisations that you despise, I have an interest so was asked to participate.

We helped run a event a few weeks ago with a team from Defra's livestock program dept.
It wasn't so much about cattle EID specifically, but about what/ how to replace arams, cts etc etc in to one multi species program.

There were a few funny ideas form them, I think we surprised them when we did a hands in the air poll of.....
Folk using smartphones......80%
Folk with at least one tag reader..... 80%
Folk already using commercial software & apps for livestock recording of some sort....50%

Age range of attendees would have been about average for industry.

We tried to make it clear that a completely paperless system for movements would be fantastic, but there must be a paper system for those who really don't want to go electronic.
The key being that if the digital system was made user friendly enough then there would be a natural move away from paper,
Exactly what was spose to happen with arams.....but due to it being sh'te, folk have gone more over to paper!

General consensus was a paper passport for cattle made folk more comfortable as it was 'some sort of security'

Biggest challenge was attempting to explain to folk that mobile phone systems do not need signal at the exact time of recording something,
Any app will work "off line" & will hold the info til signal is reached or when folk get home to wi-fi....... This had to be explained a few times.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

We helped run a event a few weeks ago with a team from Defra's livestock program dept.
It wasn't so much about cattle EID specifically, but about what/ how to replace arams, cts etc etc in to one multi species program.

There were a few funny ideas form them, I think we surprised them when we did a hands in the air poll of.....
Folk using smartphones......80%
Folk with at least one tag reader..... 80%
Folk already using commercial software & apps for livestock recording of some sort....50%

Age range of attendees would have been about average for industry.

We tried to make it clear that a completely paperless system for movements would be fantastic, but there must be a paper system for those who really don't want to go electronic.
The key being that if the digital system was made user friendly enough then there would be a natural move away from paper,
Exactly what was spose to happen with arams.....but due to it being sh'te, folk have gone more over to paper!

General consensus was a paper passport for cattle made folk more comfortable as it was 'some sort of security'

Biggest challenge was attempting to explain to folk that mobile phone systems do not need signal at the exact time of recording something,
Any app will work "off line" & will hold the info til signal is reached or when folk get home to wi-fi....... This had to be explained a few times.

It really is quite amazing how fast stuff does change in reality though.
Look how everyone was petrified of the concept of money cards and online banking when there was nothing wrong with a chequebook and a money-belt

It won't work.
It isn't safe enough.
What if there's no signal and I simply must transfer it over in the shop?
This card hasn't even got my name on it, you sure it's my money hidden inside it?

Then 5 years later everyone is laughing at the guy who still pays @smcapstick via cheque all except @smcapstick of course, who has to make a trip with a cheque and wait a week for something that could and should be instant - a transaction - to take place.

Never mind, it sounds like I'm trying to sell the idea now, I don't give a toss whether it happens or not

 

[smcapstick]

It really is quite amazing how fast stuff does change in reality though.
Look how everyone was petrified of the concept of money cards and online banking when there was nothing wrong with a chequebook and a money-belt

It won't work.
It isn't safe enough.
What if there's no signal and I simply must transfer it over in the shop?
This card hasn't even got my name on it, you sure it's my money hidden inside it?

Then 5 years later everyone is laughing at the guy who still pays @smcapstick via cheque all except @smcapstick of course, who has to make a trip with a cheque and wait a week for something that could and should be instant - a transaction - to take place.

Never mind, it sounds like I'm trying to sell the idea now, I don't give a toss whether it happens or not

People that fear online paperwork and transactions are dinosaurs. They're Luddites. They're silly heads!

 

[Kiwi Pete]

People that fear online paperwork and transactions are dinosaurs. They're Luddites. They're silly heads!

 

[Jackov Altraids]

People that fear online paperwork and transactions are dinosaurs. They're Luddites. They're silly heads!

But.......
The huge cost of fraud associated with this doesn't really get mentioned.
The government, banks and techies are just too keen on the benefits that they don't properly address the negative points.
In finance, huge losses to fraud are deemed acceptable and it is us who ultimately have to pay for them. These would largely be not possible in a non-digital age.
There have been many threads on here about ARAMS and how incompetent it is to the point where many of us keep everything on paper to prove our own competence.
I'm not a luddite [a mis-appropriated term] or a silly head but simply try to assess whether adding an electronic/ digital element to anything has an overall positive or negative affect.

I can read a primary at the speed of light. I can write it down pretty quickly too. I am pretty much always fully charged and rarely need back up in case of error404.

Any electonic system should have a manual way of completing the task in case of failure which should be available for us 'luddites' to use any time.