Crazy, crazy, crazy.

[caveman]

Ill just drop this here.
Listened to it yesterday morning.
The man's an idiot.
Thank god we're out.

 

[czechmate]

Makes good sense.
Thank god your out

 

[Danllan]

Hmm... at 6:35 he claims that the UK is in the EU, which seems a bit odd... to put it mildly.

His comments regarding Nigel Farage and Ukraine are bang on; but he seems in a bit of a self-justifying loop regarding the rest of the Brexit question. Nick Ferrari should have asked him how many times the EU had changed agreements... but he didn't.

That aside I agree with a fair bit of what he said, but he is speaking from the luxury of irrelevance. By that I mean he is in the same position as an opposition leader, he can say 'This should / must be done', when he won't have to implement it, and won't be held to account for any consequences of it. Most of the EU simply can't stop using Russian energy as he insists, they are oil economies, end the importation now and the schools won't open, hospitals won't open, industry will stop. No, the proposed phasing out looks about right, but I'll be pleasantly surprised if it is achieved on schedule.

His call for a complete EU defence system sounds reasonable, until you look at it carefully. What about the ROI, which won't arm the Ukrainians when desperate, what about Austria, what about Finnish and Swedish neutrality - admittedly that might change...? Does anyone really think that France can be fully integrated into such an organisation, impossible because it will never surrender its nuclear deterrent. And who will have command? Nobody will be able to rationally argue that it is or ever has been in any way a good thing for there to be an armed force without people who are democratically accountable being in command. So that's the EC and its president out, the EP... ... seriously?

Which leaves the European Council, again a reasonable sounding idea, but... would there have to be unanimity, simple majority, qualified majority or what? It's very, very hard to imagine any country who bitterly opposes a given military adventure allowing its own people and money to be part of it.

But of course this is the fellow who has said that the EU is an empire, and that empires are undemocratic, and that democracy is a fundamental human right, and that the EU is founded on human rights...

 

[ollie989898]

Hmm... at 6:35 he claims that the UK is in the EU, which seems a bit odd... to put it mildly.

His comments regarding Nigel Farage and Ukraine are bang on; but he seems in a bit of a self-justifying loop regarding the rest of the Brexit question. Nick Ferrari should have asked him how many times the EU had changed agreements... but he didn't.

That aside I agree with a fair bit of what he said, but he is speaking from the luxury of irrelevance. By that I mean he is in the same position as an opposition leader, he can say 'This should / must be done', when he won't have to implement it, and won't be held to account for any consequences of it. Most of the EU simply can't stop using Russian energy as he insists, they are oil economies, end the importation now and the schools won't open, hospitals won't open, industry will stop. No, the proposed phasing out looks about right, but I'll be pleasantly surprised if it is achieved on schedule.

His call for a complete EU defence system sounds reasonable, until you look at it carefully. What about the ROI, which won't arm the Ukrainians when desperate, what about Austria, what about Finnish and Swedish neutrality - admittedly that might change...? Does anyone really think that France can be fully integrated into such an organisation, impossible because it will never surrender its nuclear deterrent. And who will have command? Nobody will be able to rationally argue that it is or ever has been in any way a good thing for there to be an armed force without people who are democratically accountable being in command. So that's the EC and its president out, the EP... ... seriously?

Which leaves the European Council, again a reasonable sounding idea, but... would there have to be unanimity, simple majority, qualified majority or what? It's very, very hard to imagine any country who bitterly opposes a given military adventure allowing its own people and money to be part of it.

But of course this is the fellow who has said that the EU is an empire, and that empires are undemocratic, and that democracy is a fundamental human right, and that the EU is founded on human rights...

An EU army would never work, it is not necessary and would only serve to be politically and diplomatically destabilising. NATO functions as a defensive union, it has worked for decades and I see no reason for any change to the present circumstances. The EU should not be in charge of anything more dangerous than a letter opener.

 

[fudge]

An EU army would never work, it is not necessary and would only serve to be politically and diplomatically destabilising. NATO functions as a defensive union, it has worked for decades and I see no reason for any change to the present circumstances. The EU should not be in charge of anything more dangerous than a letter opener.

NATO relies on US capability. The USA is a divided country, the de facto leader of the Republicans recently referred to Putin’s actions as “genius”. It is not in the interests of any country that thinks of itself as European to ignore these facts.

 

[ollie989898]

NATO relies on US capability. The USA is a divided country, the de facto leader of the Republicans recently referred to Putin’s actions as “genius”. It is not in the interests of any country that thinks of itself as European to ignore these facts.

Yes, NATO does rely on the USA, but they have demonstrated that they are more than willing to step up and do what is needed when required. Their military spending alone is a deterrent for some countries trying anything daft. Look at their commitment to Japan and South Korea. What other evidence do you need them to produce to show their intentions?

It is important, however, that the UK and France both remain nuclear powers and back NATO.

 

[Danllan]

NATO relies on US capability. The USA is a divided country, the de facto leader of the Republicans recently referred to Putin’s actions as “genius”. It is not in the interests of any country that thinks of itself as European to ignore these facts.

And yet the US was one of the very few countries that trained and armed the Ukrainians while the great majority of Europe looked on...

As for being divided, all polling shows near total bipartisan support for President Biden's actions regarding Ukraine. While over here we have a loyal opposition and in France the main opposition for the last decade has been a neo-fascisitic party that has consistently received more than a third of the votes! And let's not mention Greece, Italy, Spain etc. etc..

Your 'facts' always seem to come from the perspective of a someone who loathes the West, embodied by the US and the UK particularly. And of someone that never recognises anything in or about any of the European countries that demonstrate the 'faults' you claim to so deplore in the US and UK, very often to a far greater degree. I wonder why...

 

[Ashtree]

Yes, NATO does rely on the USA, but they have demonstrated that they are more than willing to step up and do what is needed when required. Their military spending alone is a deterrent for some countries trying anything daft. Look at their commitment to Japan and South Korea. What other evidence do you need them to produce to show their intentions?

It is important, however, that the UK and France both remain nuclear powers and back NATO.

Just look at present day USA! If you think Europe can rely on it, for trade never mind defence, you are dreaming.
Does anybody really know how USA would have reacted to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, if Trump was still in the Whitehouse?
Trump was and is a Putin apologist, and there is ample evidence to suggest, he is under a degree of “coercion”, from Moscow!
If ever there was a time for Europe to think again, and develop independence in defence, cyber security, microprocessor design and manufacture, then now is the time. The next Republican President of USA, most likely will be from the lunatic far right of the spectrum, even if it’s not Trump. Europe needs to try to “manage”, it’s relationship USA in that event, and simultaneously shift it’s current dependence away from USA for so many things.
PS: UK, has already had a lesson from Trump, on what it’s relationship with a future GOP, far right President could look like. Uncomfortable to say the least.

 

[Danllan]

Just look at present day USA! If you think Europe can rely on it, for trade never mind defence, you are dreaming.
Does anybody really know how USA would have reacted to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, if Trump was still in the Whitehouse?
Trump was and is a Putin apologist, and there is ample evidence to suggest, he is under a degree of “coercion”, from Moscow!
If ever there was a time for Europe to think again, and develop independence in defence, cyber security, microprocessor design and manufacture, then now is the time. The next Republican President of USA, most likely will be from the lunatic far right of the spectrum, even if it’s not Trump. Europe needs to try to “manage”, it’s relationship USA in that event, and simultaneously shift it’s current dependence away from USA for so many things.
PS: UK, has already had a lesson from Trump, on what it’s relationship with a future GOP, far right President could look like. Uncomfortable to say the least.

To what extent can the ROI be 'relied' upon? (asking for a friend in Eastern Europe)

 

[ollie989898]

Just look at present day USA! If you think Europe can rely on it, for trade never mind defence, you are dreaming.
Does anybody really know how USA would have reacted to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, if Trump was still in the Whitehouse?
Trump was and is a Putin apologist, and there is ample evidence to suggest, he is under a degree of “coercion”, from Moscow!
If ever there was a time for Europe to think again, and develop independence in defence, cyber security, microprocessor design and manufacture, then now is the time. The next Republican President of USA, most likely will be from the lunatic far right of the spectrum, even if it’s not Trump. Europe needs to try to “manage”, it’s relationship USA in that event, and simultaneously shift it’s current dependence away from USA for so many things.
PS: UK, has already had a lesson from Trump, on what it’s relationship with a future GOP, far right President could look like. Uncomfortable to say the least.

Trump, for all his bluster, wouldn't stand a hope in hades of overruling the remainder of the Republican party when it came to military supplies for Ukraine. The Republican party is deeply wedded to defence spending and congress would have cut him off at the knees.

Trump made loads of noise about pulling out of Europe, pulling out of Japan, pulling out of all their overseas bases, and South Korea, none of it happened. Because too many US political and diplomatic interested as protected by these deployments.

As for US-European trade, it's no secret that both parties have been at loggerheads for years. Trump or no Trump the game remains the same as it always was. The EU is protectionist and the USA is protectionist. Twas ever thus.

And lastly, the UK has it's own defence (we spend as much as Russia), it's own cyber security and is loaded with tech companies and high end manufacturers. Maybe you didn't get that memo.

 

[czechmate]

Trump, for all his bluster, wouldn't stand a hope in hades of overruling the remainder of the Republican party when it came to military supplies for Ukraine. The Republican party is deeply wedded to defence spending and congress would have cut him off at the knees.

Trump made loads of noise about pulling out of Europe, pulling out of Japan, pulling out of all their overseas bases, and South Korea, none of it happened. Because too many US political and diplomatic interested as protected by these deployments.

As for US-European trade, it's no secret that both parties have been at loggerheads for years. Trump or no Trump the game remains the same as it always was. The EU is protectionist and the USA is protectionist. Twas ever thus.

yes.
It is no wonder they are lining up to join

 

[Danllan]

Trump was and is a Putin apologist, and there is ample evidence to suggest, he is under a degree of “coercion”, from Moscow!

What 'evidence'? The US Democrats have adduced none, the US Attorney General is aware of none. There were allegations, but there is no evidence, just vitriol and hyperbole against a rather unpleasant fellow, but no evidence. What do you know that they don't? Please share it with us.

 

[Ashtree]

To what extent can the ROI be 'relied' upon? (asking for a friend in Eastern Europe)

Well, I can tell you, that the decision not to supply lethal weapons to Ukraine, has caused much consternation in the general population. Me included. I have no doubt but there is a national debate now underway about this, and in the event of a future referendum on EU defence, we will vote overwhelmingly to participate fully in that. We are not happy about the current situation.
That all said, the national, local and community efforts currently underway, in every city, town and village to shelter and take care of displaced Ukranians, is if the highest possible order. We do human decency rather well, when push comes to shove.
Right now, our capacity militarily to help Ukraine is practically zero. Our capacity in other ways, is significant, and we are perhaps outperforming in that regards.
You should reflect on the abject state of poverty and destruction this small country was left in, barely 100 years ago, after independence and the following civil war. The decisions which followed, to hunker down and “survive”, never mind building a military, were not born out of cowardice but of absolute necessity. The bare necessity to survive and try to get a functioning society and economy. Neutrality arose from our position at that time, and hasn’t changed.
It has to now change, and I’m sure there will be a future EU / European defence arrangement, which will require a referendum here. I have no doubt about the outcome.

 

[nivilla1982]

Statement by Donald J. Trump, 45th President of the United States of America​

03/16/22
FacebookTwitterEmailMore
People forget so quickly, with the help of the Fake News, that it was me that got the 20 out of 28 delinquent NATO countries to start paying the money that they owed in order to rebuild a floundering NATO. Nobody knew things would happen so rapidly, but NATO was poor and now it is rich, and all of the Fake News commentators that said Trump was tearing down NATO should be ashamed of themselves for telling lies. Not only was the United States being taken advantage of by the EU on trade, but it was forced to pay the costs of the many delinquent NATO countries. Bush and Obama did nothing but make speeches and talk—I acted, and acted strongly. I said to them, “if you don’t pay up, no protection.” They all paid up, and paid up quickly. It’s a story that’s never reported, but that’s only because we have a corrupt press in our Country!

Statement by Donald J. Trump, 45th President of the United States of America

Over the past four years, Donald J. Trump's administration delivered for Americans of all backgrounds like never before. Save America is about building on those accomplishments!

www.donaldjtrump.com

D Trump's view.

 

[Danllan]

Well, I can tell you, that the decision not to supply lethal weapons to Ukraine, has caused much consternation in the general population. Me included. I have no doubt but there is a national debate now underway about this, and in the event of a future referendum on EU defence, we will vote overwhelmingly to participate fully in that. We are not happy about the current situation...

It has to now change, and I’m sure there will be a future EU / European defence arrangement, which will require a referendum here. I have no doubt about the outcome.

About time too, never doubted the people of the ROI as anything other than decent, but was rather disappointed when the likes of Germany and Switzerland did the right thing and your government didn't seize the opportunity.

I have heard some TDs speak in a way that supports what you write. But your current and past / future PMs both say nothing in support of it, their parties as a whole don't seem keen, nor does the Dail as a whole. Is that a definite principle which they'll stick to or will they, being politicians, 'see it in a different light' if public opinion becomes overwhelming?

I don't know your full legal process for holding referenda; I guess it needs the approval of a majority in both Houses and the President's approval too. But I guess that if there is a groundswell it could become an electoral issue, which would see an inevitable vote so that one party couldn't capitalise on it. If they do 'stick to principle', is there any constitutional way for the people to get a referendum without reference to the Dail, via a large petition or some such?

 

[czechmate]

This thread title takes me back.
In the heyday of my courgette farming days, we used to have incredibly loud music playing as we picked. This from Underworlds, everything, everything live album was playing and the lad next to me asks “why does he keep singing “tea break tea break tea break?”
I think what ARE you on about, but then if you listen the crazy crazy crazy can be heard as tea break. Amazing what you can do with your mind.
BTW amazing version of born slippy on this album
Just thought I would add something British to the thread being as the eu is nothing to do with the U.K. any more

 

[Danllan]

This thread title takes me back.
In the heyday of my courgette farming days, we used to have incredibly loud music playing as we picked. This from Underworlds, everything, everything live album was playing and the lad next to me asks “why does he keep singing “tea break tea break tea break?”
I think what ARE you on about, but then if you listen the crazy crazy crazy can be heard as tea break. Amazing what you can do with your mind.
BTW amazing version of born slippy on this album
Just thought I would add something British to the thread being as the eu is nothing to do with the U.K. any more

What an awful noise, but I see what you mean. Lots of songs like that; Mrs Danllan reckons 'For your love' by the Yardbirds sounds like 'Bo yo yong!' - but I can't hear that at all.

As for the UK and EU - and bearing in mind the start of my first post - tell Guy!

 

[fudge]

And yet the US was one of the very few countries that trained and armed the Ukrainians while the great majority of Europe looked on...

As for being divided, all polling shows near total bipartisan support for President Biden's actions regarding Ukraine. While over here we have a loyal opposition and in France the main opposition for the last decade has been a neo-fascisitic party that has consistently received more than a third of the votes! And let's not mention Greece, Italy, Spain etc. etc..

Your 'facts' always seem to come from the perspective of a someone who loathes the West, embodied by the US and the UK particularly. And of someone that never recognises anything in or about any of the European countries that demonstrate the 'faults' you claim to so deplore in the US and UK, very often to a far greater degree. I wonder why...

You have no evidence I loathe the west. I do know about Ukrainian training first hand from a friend who has actually been to Ukraine on a training mission. I note the bipartisan approach you speak of doesn’t include air cover. This can hardly instill huge confidence in the Baltic states. Then I don’t have your experience do I Field Marshall?

 

[czechmate]

You have no evidence I loathe the west. I do know about Ukrainian training first hand from a friend who has actually been to Ukraine on a training mission. I note the bipartisan approach you speak of doesn’t include air cover. This can hardly instill huge confidence in the Baltic states. Then I don’t have your experience do I Field Marshall?

the Baltic states are in NATO?

 

[ollie989898]

You have no evidence I loathe the west. I do know about Ukrainian training first hand from a friend who has actually been to Ukraine on a training mission. I note the bipartisan approach you speak of doesn’t include air cover. This can hardly instill huge confidence in the Baltic states. Then I don’t have your experience do I Field Marshall?

UK, Germany and France have enough air power combined to install a no-fly zone anywhere of their choosing apart from maybe in a contest involving China. They also have the required tanker, AEW and the like to support it. This is to say nothing of the Dutch, Denmark, Finland or other nations who have fast jets.