DD / Strip till

[sjt01]

That’s a nice set-up. Without the full weight of the drill on the back, do you still get the same soil penetration with the coulters when the ground is hard?

PS I like your farm Tesla parked up in the gateway.

Penetration is no problem with the Weaving legs, should be even easier with the Metcalfe legs we have recently fitted as they have a bit more rake. Of course, with the Fendt you can always push down on the linkage if penetration is an issue.

 

[sjt01]

Like the look of this.

Sorry, being nosey. Can't quite see from the photo, what's on the back? Have you converted a cultivator?

It started life as a KV cultivator, converted to a Sabre tine drill by @Bob lincs then updated recently with Metcalfe legs and two extra legs added to make it 6 metre. You can see the front hopper next to the combine.

 

[Grass And Grain]

It started life as a KV cultivator, converted to a Sabre tine drill by @Bob lincs then updated recently with Metcalfe legs and two extra legs added to make it 6 metre. You can see the front hopper next to the combine.
View attachment 1061272

Thanks. Look great/simple and cost effective.

I read about DD with interest, but haven't personally taken the plunge.

We're low lying. In a wet harvest time not unusual to have water sat in wheelings left by combine.

Bale everything, lead bales, fair bit of FYM spreading.

Obvs dry as dry this year with zero harvest damage to soils. Some opportunistic DD might be a start.

Still can't get my head around brome seeds on the surface (too dry to germinate atm). If still no rain, then we DD, I'm quite certain we'd get a brome explosion.

 

[Heathland]

What are you going to do different in front of your spring barley this year?

1st year just left the ground didn't touch it,it was solid by the spring,nightmare.
Last year ran the dtx through it in the autumn,by the spring nice and dry on top,but it was like pudding underneath,and very soft.
This year I've run the short disc over it,and got a good chit of volunteer wheat,so might just leave them as a bit off cover.
But I do needed to keep flushing BG,so will probably run the short discs/straw rake over it in October again.




.

 

[teslacoils]

I have come to the opinion that there is nothing I can do to my soil to stop it being "wet underneath" come spring. The drains are always running in April. Just needs that top layer for drilling to be solid enough to take the machinery without doing any damage deeper down. Linseed into subsoiled stubbles, or spring barley / oats into lightly worked land that has been rolled down is the closest I have been able to come to getting solid performing crops without overwintered ploughing.

 

[Brisel]

I remain baffled as to why more farmers aren't adopting less power consuming options for establishment of their crops. If output can be maintained then why not? It really does slash fuel, machinery and labour costs and, in our case, not had any impact on yield. Having said that, we considered that DD wouldn't work well on our very stony land, hence opting for strip till. Our only fly in the ointment now is having to plough for potatoes and vining peas. Seriously think about dropping these. Having said all that, I've never done so much autumn and winter crop walking as I did in the first season!

“If output can be maintained” is the important part of this. A drop in yields is what most triers fear. A small yield loss pays for a lot of steel and horsepower. Most adopters of DD don’t cut their overheads straight away either, just in case they have to intervene to get crops sown. That creates the triple whammy of an expensive new direct drill, still having the fixed costs from before too, and a loss of output.

In my experience of a Claydon Hybrid on chalk, winter wheat yields went up slightly, osr down (more due to flea beetle) but the hardest to get consistency with were spring crops. Beans, oilseed rape and anything else that needs wide row spacing love strip till. We started later in spring waiting for the soil to dry out while watching the neighbours drilling on land opened up by ploughing weeks/months before and the delay cost valuable growing season.

Where I am now, we run a Mzuri but bought a low disturbance subsoiler for getting through the occasional tight layer at 4-7” deep where the drill legs don’t reach but no work has been done at depth to relieve it. The roots do get through this tighter layer and there are worm casts which are increasing in number over time.

I would say that there are some golden rules for DD and strip till drilling;

1. What you used to fix with steel and diesel will now have to be watched carefully with your own time, eyes, nose and a spade.
2. Spend the time you would have previously used driving up and down a field reading up on DD and seeing others already doing it to help avoid some painfully expensive mistakes. Management is in greater demand when you reduce steel inputs! Join BASE UK and venture into the DD section of TFF. Names like Gabe Brown, David Montgomery, Christine Jones, Steve Townsend should be part of your pile of literature to have read and understood. Read Nuffield Scholar reports too - there are several Nuffields who regularly post in TFF.
3. Be prepared to start drilling earlier in the autumn and later in the spring.
4. Strip till is the worst of all worlds when it comes to slugs and weeds - the drill is a part of the system for putting seed into loosened soil. If you want to reduce slugs, remove brassicas from your rotation. If you want to reduce grass weeds, change the system that encouraged them by widening your rotation to include spring crops and a range of crops with different drilling dates.
5. Keep seed rates up - this may mean your fancy hybrid seeds sold by the inputs trade are no longer so attractive. A competitive crop is key, especially on wider row spacings.
6. Avoid long fallow periods - bare ground has no life on it or in it. You may need to use this occasionally if you have a serious problem to sort out though.
7. These core principles of Conservation Agriculture should be top of the list really,
   1. Low soil disturbance
   2. Plant diversity - wide crop rotations, multi species cover crops, companion crops
   3. Soil armour - no bare soil. Retain stubbles, cover crops, retain plant residues, boost soil organic matter by adding manures, chopping straw, cover crops etc
   4. Continuous green cover. Keep the soil alive - greenery keeps the soil organisms fed. Living roots also help drainage. This year’s roots are next year’s drainage channels.
   5. Integrate livestock into your rotation. It is no conincidence that our ancestors had a few years of grass in their rotations before the likes of ICI and BASF became farm household names.

 

[Brisel]

How do the strip tillers get better, more consistent spring cereals? Spring barley & oats were the hardest to get right with the Claydon. Tried cover crops, overwintered stubbles, catch crops eg. stubble turnips.

 

[teslacoils]

A lot of what reduces my interest in anything but my high input wheat cropping is that lack of reliably profitable break crops. Farm saved linseed without loosing much moisture doesnt need to move that wet soil below. Similarly spring oats could always take a slightly worse soil condition than barley and wheat. Both are proper "keep it cheap and make a little dosh" crops.

 

[Case290]

hard to get any spring crops to work when it dosnt rain for weeks after drilling. Claydon is almost impossible drys out to much disc drill or narrow tine has been my most consistent

 

[principal skinner]

1st year just left the ground didn't touch it,it was solid by the spring,nightmare.
Last year ran the dtx through it in the autumn,by the spring nice and dry on top,but it was like pudding underneath,and very soft.
This year I've run the short disc over it,and got a good chit of volunteer wheat,so might just leave them as a bit off cover.
But I do needed to keep flushing BG,so will probably run the short discs/straw rake over it in October again.




.

I run a DTX with every other leg taken out and LD Agri cast legs a points through spring drilling ground in the autumn. Disks hardly touching the soil. Leaves it open but firm. Straight in with the Claydon in the spring, this year the difference between moved and unmoved was 1t/ha of oats

 

[Drillman]

“If output can be maintained” is the important part of this. A drop in yields is what most triers fear. A small yield loss pays for a lot of steel and horsepower. Most adopters of DD don’t cut their overheads straight away either, just in case they have to intervene to get crops sown. That creates the triple whammy of an expensive new direct drill, still having the fixed costs from before too, and a loss of output.

In my experience of a Claydon Hybrid on chalk, winter wheat yields went up slightly, osr down (more due to flea beetle) but the hardest to get consistency with were spring crops. Beans, oilseed rape and anything else that needs wide row spacing love strip till. We started later in spring waiting for the soil to dry out while watching the neighbours drilling on land opened up by ploughing weeks/months before and the delay cost valuable growing season.

Where I am now, we run a Mzuri but bought a low disturbance subsoiler for getting through the occasional tight layer at 4-7” deep where the drill legs don’t reach but no work has been done at depth to relieve it. The roots do get through this tighter layer and there are worm casts which are increasing in number over time.

I would say that there are some golden rules for DD and strip till drilling;

1. What you used to fix with steel and diesel will now have to be watched carefully with your own time, eyes, nose and a spade.
2. Spend the time you would have previously used driving up and down a field reading up on DD and seeing others already doing it to help avoid some painfully expensive mistakes. Management is in greater demand when you reduce steel inputs! Join BASE UK and venture into the DD section of TFF. Names like Gabe Brown, David Montgomery, Christine Jones, Steve Townsend should be part of your pile of literature to have read and understood. Read Nuffield Scholar reports too - there are several Nuffields who regularly post in TFF.
3. Be prepared to start drilling earlier in the autumn and later in the spring.
4. Strip till is the worst of all worlds when it comes to slugs and weeds - the drill is a part of the system for putting seed into loosened soil. If you want to reduce slugs, remove brassicas from your rotation. If you want to reduce grass weeds, change the system that encouraged them by widening your rotation to include spring crops and a range of crops with different drilling dates.
5. Keep seed rates up - this may mean your fancy hybrid seeds sold by the inputs trade are no longer so attractive. A competitive crop is key, especially on wider row spacings.
6. Avoid long fallow periods - bare ground has no life on it or in it. You may need to use this occasionally if you have a serious problem to sort out though.
7. These core principles of Conservation Agriculture should be top of the list really,
   1. Low soil disturbance
   2. Plant diversity - wide crop rotations, multi species cover crops, companion crops
   3. Soil armour - no bare soil. Retain stubbles, cover crops, retain plant residues, boost soil organic matter by adding manures, chopping straw, cover crops etc
   4. Continuous green cover. Keep the soil alive - greenery keeps the soil organisms fed. Living roots also help drainage. This year’s roots are next year’s drainage channels.
   5. Integrate livestock into your rotation. It is no conincidence that our ancestors had a few years of grass in their rotations before the likes of ICI and BASF became farm household names.

How much earlier in autumn would you suggest as been ideal for DD versus max till?

 

[juke]

How do the strip tillers get better, more consistent spring cereals? Spring barley & oats were the hardest to get right with the Claydon. Tried cover crops, overwintered stubbles, catch crops eg. stubble turnips.

Buy a disc drill on narrower spacing is the easiest answer for spring cereals.

 

[Heathland]

I run a DTX with every other leg taken out and LD Agri cast legs a points through spring drilling ground in the autumn. Disks hardly touching the soil. Leaves it open but firm. Straight in with the Claydon in the spring, this year the difference between moved and unmoved was 1t/ha of oats

Never thought about alternative legs in the dtx,every day's a learning day,I'll look into this as I've some extremely heavy land planned for SB,like you said the drill likes it firm but not solid.

 

[Brisel]

How much earlier in autumn would you suggest as been ideal for DD versus max till?

It is more about needing a few dry days after drilling rather than calendar date. DD straight into a wet stubble on clay in late October is not going to produce good establishment.

 

[Heathland]

@principal skinner
Just had a look on their website just wondering what leg are you running GLX LDX or STX.
Cheers.

 

[Two Tone]

If you use a front seed hopper you put the weight in the right place, save carting 2 tonnes of iron up and down the field causing more compaction. The only downside is a few minutes hooking up.

Can work in reverse. Sometimes you need the weight to get good enough tine penetration.

 

[Two Tone]

It is more about needing a few dry days after drilling rather than calendar date. DD straight into a wet stubble on clay in late October is not going to produce good establishment.

Absolutely!

How much earlier in autumn would you suggest as been ideal for DD versus max till?

Therefore, about 2 weeks.

I’ll be starting to drill my Winter Barley, middle to the end of next week (15th Sept) followed by the wheat. I want it all in by at least the end of Sept and I’ll not worry about delaying drilling for Blackgrass control, because by not disturbing any soil other than where the seed is planted, it will stay asleep.

I haven’t touched and won’t touch any of it before I drill it and I won’t need to roll it afterwards, because the wheel following the disc coulters does that job for me.

I’ll be trying both new BASF and Bayer BG pre em sprays this autumn, now confident that I won’t need to add Avadex with it in most cases and it’ll all be sprayed within 48 hours of drilling. Not needing the huge 4 litre volume of Crystal/ha will help reduce the risk of damage to the seed if we get a deluge within a week of drilling.

The secret is conditions at drilling and the week afterward. That generally means early and not disturbing any soil before you drill it which might turn into a bog.

However, in the Spring, it is completely the reverse and maybe moving the very top a little to dry it out and ensure a better seed to soil contact, without it drying out too much, then seal it in.
I try to avoid any Spring drilling if I can.

Don't be afraid to give it a go. Learn from any mistakes and be determined to want to make it work.
You’d be stunned how what looks like a not very inspiring crop can recover and do so well. It’s like you kicked it in the teeth and it came back out fighting!
Keep the seed rates well up.

 

[ajd132]

Buy a disc drill on narrower spacing is the easiest answer for spring cereals.

Not here, the slot just dries out and opens up, it’s horrendous.

 

[Drillman]

Absolutely!

Therefore, about 2 weeks.

I’ll be starting to drill my Winter Barley, middle to the end of next week (15th Sept) followed by the wheat. I want it all in by at least the end of Sept and I’ll not worry about delaying drilling for Blackgrass control, because by not disturbing any soil other than where the seed is planted, it will stay asleep.

I haven’t touched and won’t touch any of it before I drill it and I won’t need to roll it afterwards, because the wheel following the disc coulters does that job for me.

I’ll be trying both new BASF and Bayer BG pre em sprays this autumn, now confident that I won’t need to add Avadex with it in most cases and it’ll all be sprayed within 48 hours of drilling. Not needing the huge 4 litre volume of Crystal/ha will help reduce the risk of damage to the seed if we get a deluge within a week of drilling.

The secret is conditions at drilling and the week afterward. That generally means early and not disturbing any soil before you drill it which might turn into a bog.

However, in the Spring, it is completely the reverse and maybe moving the very top a little to dry it out and ensure a better seed to soil contact, without it drying out too much, then seal it in.
I try to avoid any Spring drilling if I can.

Don't be afraid to give it a go. Learn from any mistakes and be determined to want to make it work.
You’d be stunned how what looks like a not very inspiring crop can recover and do so well. It’s like you kicked it in the teeth and it came back out fighting!
Keep the seed rates well up.

Hmm we normally aim to be drilled up in September anyway, fetching things forwards 2 weeks in a normal year would be almost impossible as still standing crops in most fields.

Disc drill isn’t for us either looking at DD results locally, the tine seems a better option.

I think for us a quick pass with something to get a chit as soon as we have straw cleared (if there is a worthwhile amount of time to do it) then drill 20th sept on as normal be our best bet.

 

[Grass And Grain]

Absolutely!

Therefore, about 2 weeks.

I’ll be starting to drill my Winter Barley, middle to the end of next week (15th Sept) followed by the wheat. I want it all in by at least the end of Sept and I’ll not worry about delaying drilling for Blackgrass control, because by not disturbing any soil other than where the seed is planted, it will stay asleep.

I haven’t touched and won’t touch any of it before I drill it and I won’t need to roll it afterwards, because the wheel following the disc coulters does that job for me.

I’ll be trying both new BASF and Bayer BG pre em sprays this autumn, now confident that I won’t need to add Avadex with it in most cases and it’ll all be sprayed within 48 hours of drilling. Not needing the huge 4 litre volume of Crystal/ha will help reduce the risk of damage to the seed if we get a deluge within a week of drilling.

The secret is conditions at drilling and the week afterward. That generally means early and not disturbing any soil before you drill it which might turn into a bog.

However, in the Spring, it is completely the reverse and maybe moving the very top a little to dry it out and ensure a better seed to soil contact, without it drying out too much, then seal it in.
I try to avoid any Spring drilling if I can.

Don't be afraid to give it a go. Learn from any mistakes and be determined to want to make it work.
You’d be stunned how what looks like a not very inspiring crop can recover and do so well. It’s like you kicked it in the teeth and it came back out fighting!
Keep the seed rates well up.

Have you any brome populations?

I'd be worried if we've had a dry post harvest and it hasn't had a flush to spray off, it will then germinate off the surface and grow in the crop. (Some brome species germinate best left on surface, others get woken up with cultivation).

Do you find brome a problem?

Trying to learn how to deal with it in a DD situation.