Docking

[Top Tip.]

I will leave you lot alone as long as you are not compromising animal welfare. I don't believe that docking is always necessary. I do believe you are likely breaking the law using a hot iron without anaesthetic. Ideally you would also give painkillers too. I bet none of you are. There is some work to show that a little bleb of local anaesthetic at rubber ring application removes almost all of the negative behavioural responses that are observed - I don't know anyone doing it.

Many farmers just want to stick their nose to the ground and do what they have always done without thinking about why they do it and whether it is necessary. Getting on a high horse because our welfare standards are better than NZ because we can only use rings for 7 days and they can for 28 just goes on to prove my point.

If you can't farm sheep humanely and economically then don't farm sheep. There is going to be increased external pressure on these things - I have no doubt. I am also certain that many farmers have never left Ia significant number of sheep undocked or uncastrated to see what happens. Remember when these practices came in the fly products we have now simply didn't exist. Personally I have seen far more sheep stuck that have been docked - it's not a magic bullet.

I agree with what you are saying but what you are doing is blindly following the law well in this case the law is wrong because i have used most forms of trail docking procedures and I can assure you this is the most humane ,that is why I am using it.

 

[Philip Watkins]

Yeah, I envisage a double pen system. Once the ewes have been drafted out the lambs would be held in pen 1. As each lamb has the pain relief administered it is transferred to pen 2. From there it then enters the processing chute and is then returned to the field with the ewe flock.

It's got the potential to massively reduce the labour cost of outdoor lambing flocks (Easycare and Exlana excepted).

You would have to do a small bunch at a time if doing it like that because you can't guarantee to tail them in the same order they get jabbed. The 1st one jabbed could be the last one to be tailed by which time the anaesthetic might have worn off.

 

[CharcoalWally]

be less chance of bugs getting into the lamb than using rings...?

Used to cut lambs tails here on this farm when I was a kid but moved to the rings. Far less infection problems with the rings.With cut tails always had to bring a few lambs back in for treatment.

 

[Bury the Trash]

Used to cut lambs tails here on this farm whe

I have never used a knife at home but i did when doing some lambs in Australia. - this tool is totally different ? .maybe .than a sharp knife.
I lambed a few ewes really late one year - and still ringed without thinking too much about it, some lambs got maggots around the tail when the ring was almost through.

 

[wee man]

Certainly doesn't change overnight from 7days to 8... but as with all laws there has to be a definitive 'date' or cut-off.

I actually honestly believe lambs suffer less being banded at birth, compared to burdizzo or irons at 1 month + or the real discomfort of castration at older ages.

That's just an observation made over the years.

My observations have been the exact opposite. Young lambs show just a much pain as older lambs but they express it in a different way. Young lambs in pain tend to just lie submissively in the corner getting hypothermia, older lambs tend to fight the pain and jump about. I have never seen a month old lamb die from ringing but have seen quite a few lambs that were rung at 48 hours old die. Admittedly this is castration I'm looking at, tailing doesn't seem to be any where near as big a deal.

 

[Nithsdale]

My observations have been the exact opposite. Young lambs show just a much pain as older lambs but they express it in a different way. Young lambs in pain tend to just lie submissively in the corner getting hypothermia, older lambs tend to fight the pain and jump about. I have never seen a month old lamb die from ringing but have seen quite a few lambs that were rung at 48 hours old die. Admittedly this is castration I'm looking at, tailing doesn't seem to be any where near as big a deal.

I band everything within a few hours of birth - certainly no later as 12hours post birth. Some (very few) show signs of discomfort, most continue as they did prior.

Any lamb which has been fetched in at birth - due to the weather, or any other problems - is banded when turned back out and 2, 3 or maybe 4 days old. Those lambs deffinatley show signs of discomfort...

We used to burdizzo (and sometimes rubber band) lambs at 5-6 weeks of age. Those lambs would lay in agony for the rest of the day!

 

[neilo]

I band everything within a few hours of birth - certainly no later as 12hours post birth. Some (very few) show signs of discomfort, most continue as they did prior.

Any lamb which has been fetched in at birth - due to the weather, or any other problems - is banded when turned back out and 2, 3 or maybe 4 days old. Those lambs deffinatley show signs of discomfort...

We used to burdizzo (and sometimes rubber band) lambs at 5-6 weeks of age. Those lambs would lay in agony for the rest of the day!

I've observed the same. They seem to feel less discomfort the younger you do them.

 

[Downton_shep]

So do you ring your outside lambers asap?

 

[unlacedgecko]

I've observed the same. They seem to feel less discomfort the younger you do them.

I've used a docking iron to dock piglets at birth. They didn't seem to notice, and went straight back to the milk bar.

This video has been on before, but it seems to be a very efficient system. And the lambs don't appear to show any extra discomfort.

 

[Nithsdale]

So do you ring your outside lambers asap?

Yes.

Just make sure the lambs have suckled, and their belly is full before banding.

 

[Hilly]

I've used a docking iron to dock piglets at birth. They didn't seem to notice, and went straight back to the milk bar.

This video has been on before, but it seems to be a very efficient system. And the lambs don't appear to show any extra discomfort.

Great way of doing the job that.

 

[JD-Kid]

I band everything within a few hours of birth - certainly no later as 12hours post birth. Some (very few) show signs of discomfort, most continue as they did prior.

Any lamb which has been fetched in at birth - due to the weather, or any other problems - is banded when turned back out and 2, 3 or maybe 4 days old. Those lambs deffinatley show signs of discomfort...

We used to burdizzo (and sometimes rubber band) lambs at 5-6 weeks of age. Those lambs would lay in agony for the rest of the day!

we see the same thing with rings on older lambs but not with a iron but yet are being told rings better ...ummmmmm bull5hit lab test

 

[Hilly]

we see the same thing with rings on older lambs but not with a iron but yet are being told rings better ...ummmmmm bull5hit lab test

Sad aint, no one takes any notice of the farmer`s, but listen with intent to non farmers with an opinion.

 

[unlacedgecko]

Sad aint, no one takes any notice of the farmer`s, but listen with intent to non farmers with an opinion.

Sounds like you could be talking about bTB, predator re-introduction or a myriad of other issues...

 

[Hilly]

Sounds like you could be talking about bTB, predator re-introduction or a myriad of other issues...

Aye everything to be honest, its sh!t. Big bad farmers.

 

[JD-Kid]

Sad aint, no one takes any notice of the farmer`s, but listen with intent to non farmers with an opinion.

guess it's cos we don't have any paper on the wall been to uni for 5 years or know any thing just simple straw munchers ..

 

[Hilly]

guess it's cos we don't have any paper on the wall been to uni for 5 years or know any thing just simple straw munchers ..

Probably, sad aint it.

 

[romneymarsh]

The use of Hot iron has been debated before as has the difference between NZ standards and UK. From memory Globalovine stated that if NZ lambs destined for European markets had to abide by the same rules as UK production then supply of any significance would cease.
Yet our supermarkets and wholesale trade pile into the stuff and offer at low prices every season, total hypocrisy . It is this dual standard that producers find most difficult to reconcile as we in the UK seek to drive down costs and increase production efficiencies. @bovine

 

[unlacedgecko]

The use of Hot iron has been debated before as has the difference between NZ standards and UK. From memory Globalovine stated that if NZ lambs destined for European markets had to abide by the same rules as UK production then supply of any significance would cease.
Yet our supermarkets and wholesale trade pile into the stuff and offer at low prices every season, total hypocrisy . It is this dual standard that producers find most difficult to reconcile as we in the UK seek to drive down costs and increase production efficiencies. @bovine

I agree it is a total hypocrisy. But it's also possible for UK producers to incorporate some elements of NZ production into their systems. There are ways to drive down costs and increase production efficiencies.

What is your estimated labour cost for tailing, castrating and tagging each lamb at birth? Would it be a cost saving for you to get a contractor to do all those jobs at say 6 weeks as per the NZ way?

According to @bovine it would be legal (and not compromise welfare) to do this using a docking iron, as long as the lambs had pain relief administered (at an estimated cost of 5p per lamb). I should think a contractor could do 800+ lambs a day, and would need to charge 50p per lamb.

Thoughts?

 

[romneymarsh]

Well I run a system not dissimilar from a NZ type system. 800 Romney ewes outdoor lambing minimal intervention when necessary. But it is docking within the 7 day legal limit that complicates and makes extra work and handling. Exact costings I do not have. My lambing help is veterinary students and so cost to me is proportional to their effort and interest since it is part of their study.
It would simplify the system no end to be able to dock at a later date up to say 28 days but the law is the law and I am yet to be convinced of Bovine suggestion of an anaesthetic would be at all feasible with a high through put contractor system.