Doesn't make it alright

[merino]

Why on Earth would I 'hate' you? Please flag up this 'on the record' bit of me hating anyone other than the likes of kiddy-fiddlers, rapists, fascists, totalitarians, Putin and Mugabe - surely you aren't classing yourself with such people?

I suspect deliberate obtuseness, although simple idiocy is also an option, in your misunderstanding of my use off the word 'everybody'... I mean the Courts, the general public as represented in a jury, people who accept verdicts... do you accuse all these of lying about the crimes committed by Irish travellers? ANd I made it very clear when I asked you if you meant that the victims of these crimes were lying.

You can't support your dogma, you are running scared...

And somehow you keep getting less credible.
Which is incredible.

 

[teslacoils]

I check the source and the sums.
Aspiring Peasants can verify that.

Anything peer reviewed in a reputable journal fairly shuts me up.
ONS too.
In this instance echr or house of commons reports would probably do the same.


I won't have anything to do with the sun or gb news.
But I can't argue with the people who don't like the guardian because of its disliking of working people.

Just to be sure then, how would you evaluate the term "over-represented" in context of an academic report? Would you consider that to mean that a their share of a demographic was larger than proportion to their share of the general population? ONS is likely to give hard data with little context.

Im not about to blast a load of figures out, its just that ive had similar discussions when looking at protected characteristics in data (education outcomes).

For example, its is factually true to say that the population of gypsy, roma and travellers make up c0.1% of the general population, but 50 times this in prison or youth justice. This is clearly a fact (https://www.justiceinspectorates.go...014/04/gypsies-romany-travellers-findings.pdf) but does that mean that they have a higher incidence of incarceration for crimes that others would not be imprisoned for? Maybe a reduced chance of parole? Certainly it seems that having no fixed address makes bail / remand unlikely (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...rslivedexperiencesjusticeenglandandwales/2022) Equally, others may say "well, if the police would actually prosecute them it would be a lot more".

Id say that data on its own did not tell the entire story, and that it could be skewed either way. Folks' opinions are likely to be driven mainly from their firsthand experiences - yours sound to be good, whereas it sounds like many here will have experienced petty theft, fly tipping, coursing etc. Likewise, it is locally incredibly difficult to get planning for houses, whereas retrospective applications for initially unauthorised traveller camps seemingly not so. Here is an example (https://thelincolnite.co.uk/2022/12...ent-but-most-councillors-refrain-from-voting/) That does create a layer of resentment, however it would certainly be unfair to say that "all" of a group were alike.

One person's fact is just the start of another discussion. It would be right of me to state that the majority of crime that happens here - fly tipping, petty theft, coursing *is* caused by a small number of people. In the grand context of issues in the nation though, that couple who sold all those COVID gowns and shoved millions to the offshore banks probably caused more harm.

Immigration, travellers,etc are convenient smokescreens for bigger problems in society , but less so if they directly impact you on a weekly basis. I've got positive and negative experiences of those I've met and interacted with. From some really kind characters, to some who rammed me off the road and then threatened me with a metal bar. I think I'm sufficiently adult enough not to suggest all of any group to behave in certain ways.

Hope that's balanced and objective, with a mix of home office stats used in a HoC report and some personal interactions. Certainly I'm able to go so far as to say negative stereotypes tend to be very unhelpful, as do positive ones. Noone likes being labelled, but as farmers we are labelled every day. Must be rich, animal abusing polluters is what I hear all the time.

 

[Danllan]

And somehow you keep getting less credible.
Which is incredible.

Well... you strung me along for a little while, well done; but your evasiveness, cowardliness and dishonesty reveal you for what you are - a time waster and so irrelevant.

Apologies to others, I had supposed initially that this fellow was one of those on the political left with a 'social conscience' etc., people I generally disagree with but whose good intentions I do not doubt and whose integrity I genuinely respect - there are some on here who fit that description

I simply didn't click on to the fact of the matter, until now...

 

[yoki]

Well... you strung me along for a little while, well done; but your evasiveness, cowardliness and dishonesty reveal you for what you are - a time waster and so irrelevant.

Apologies to others, I had supposed initially that this fellow was one of those on the political left with a 'social conscience' etc., people I generally disagree with but whose good intentions I do not doubt and whose integrity I genuinely respect - there are some on here who fit that description

I simply didn't click on to the fact of the matter, until now...

You're best finding out first-hand anyway.

 

[merino]

Just to be sure then, how would you evaluate the term "over-represented" in context of an academic report? Would you consider that to mean that a their share of a demographic was larger than proportion to their share of the general population? ONS is likely to give hard data with little context.

Im not about to blast a load of figures out, its just that ive had similar discussions when looking at protected characteristics in data (education outcomes).

For example, its is factually true to say that the population of gypsy, roma and travellers make up c0.1% of the general population, but 50 times this in prison or youth justice. This is clearly a fact (https://www.justiceinspectorates.go...014/04/gypsies-romany-travellers-findings.pdf) but does that mean that they have a higher incidence of incarceration for crimes that others would not be imprisoned for? Maybe a reduced chance of parole? Certainly it seems that having no fixed address makes bail / remand unlikely (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...rslivedexperiencesjusticeenglandandwales/2022) Equally, others may say "well, if the police would actually prosecute them it would be a lot more".

Id say that data on its own did not tell the entire story, and that it could be skewed either way. Folks' opinions are likely to be driven mainly from their firsthand experiences - yours sound to be good, whereas it sounds like many here will have experienced petty theft, fly tipping, coursing etc. Likewise, it is locally incredibly difficult to get planning for houses, whereas retrospective applications for initially unauthorised traveller camps seemingly not so. Here is an example (https://thelincolnite.co.uk/2022/12...ent-but-most-councillors-refrain-from-voting/) That does create a layer of resentment, however it would certainly be unfair to say that "all" of a group were alike.

One person's fact is just the start of another discussion. It would be right of me to state that the majority of crime that happens here - fly tipping, petty theft, coursing *is* caused by a small number of people. In the grand context of issues in the nation though, that couple who sold all those COVID gowns and shoved millions to the offshore banks probably caused more harm.

Immigration, travellers,etc are convenient smokescreens for bigger problems in society , but less so if they directly impact you on a weekly basis. I've got positive and negative experiences of those I've met and interacted with. From some really kind characters, to some who rammed me off the road and then threatened me with a metal bar. I think I'm sufficiently adult enough not to suggest all of any group to behave in certain ways.

Hope that's balanced and objective, with a mix of home office stats used in a HoC report and some personal interactions. Certainly I'm able to go so far as to say negative stereotypes tend to be very unhelpful, as do positive ones. Noone likes being labelled, but as farmers we are labelled every day. Must be rich, animal abusing polluters is what I hear all the time.

The report is entirely fine by me.
A bit of adjustment is needed to be certain how over represented is over represented, class, education, medical history etc but I can't deny that that's what the numbers say.

If we're doing adult discussion not cartooish levels of bigotry (my presumption is that I should be thoroughly on ignore by the usual suspects so that should be eminently possible going forward) I'd say that the bigotry is in part a cause.

I don't think it's at all controversial (in light of the last ten pages of utter bilge) to say that there are a lot of people who are prejudiced against travellers, and who would absolutely act on that prejudice given the opportunity.

This compounds over time and across the community and through their interactions with the state and I'm sure can all see the problem with this.

Well, not all of us, Danallan reckons he can do the socioeconomic equivalent of levitation.
And probably not the guys posting about how prejudiced they are against people with protected characteristics on a public forum either.

I digress, for the planning, you might be interested to know what travellers have to say about it.
The system doesn't serve them either.

 

[stewart]

66k members. Safe to assume that many hundreds will be lesbian/gay.
We know, for sure, that Muslims are members. Important posts made about keeping abattoirs going.
Yet there is a constant dribble of homophobic and racist posts.
Often presented as humour, or thinly disguised as political comment.
The vast majority of posters on here will choose to ignore it, because it doesn't offend them.
It's the worst excuse in the world, and it doesn't make it alright.

We should be all inclusive and embrace the gay community, after all this could result in widening the circle of our friends.

 

[essex man]

You have repeatedly said things that are objectively untrue on other threads.
When shown the evidence of that you ignore it.
I don't expect this one to be any different.

You don't really understand my point.
If i believe it to be true, it's not a lie.
That's why i am confused by his liar labelling.
people saying things that aren't true is not the same thing as lying.
You have to think what you are saying is untrue to be lying

 

[essex man]

You have repeatedly said things that are objectively untrue on other threads.
When shown the evidence of that you ignore it.
I don't expect this one to be any different.

Maybe an example would be good.
"Objectively" in your opinion is not really objectively is it?

 

[primmiemoo]

You can't beat democracies like ours.

I rather fancy putting a £1 each on Count Binface and the Dolphin character candidate winning places in Westminster this Election coming

 

[teslacoils]

The report is entirely fine by me.
A bit of adjustment is needed to be certain how over represented is over represented, class, education, medical history etc but I can't deny that that's what the numbers say.

If we're doing adult discussion not cartooish levels of bigotry (my presumption is that I should be thoroughly on ignore by the usual suspects so that should be eminently possible going forward) I'd say that the bigotry is in part a cause.

I don't think it's at all controversial (in light of the last ten pages of utter bilge) to say that there are a lot of people who are prejudiced against travellers, and who would absolutely act on that prejudice given the opportunity.

This compounds over time and across the community and through their interactions with the state and I'm sure can all see the problem with this.

Well, not all of us, Danallan reckons he can do the socioeconomic equivalent of levitation.
And probably not the guys posting about how prejudiced they are against people with protected characteristics on a public forum either.

I digress, for the planning, you might be interested to know what travellers have to say about it.
The system doesn't serve them either.

To be fair, I would say it was more surprising how under-represented white-collar crime is, given the real cost of it, in prisons. Prisons are, alas, almost entirely over-represented by men. Mainly young men. And with a degree of mental impairments or illnesses. All three being protected characteristics themselves.

Yes, it is fair to say that there would be a lot fewer traveller planning issues if there was decent provision in the first place. This seems to be why councils are much more willing to green light retrospective applications than be seen to promote or endorse sites brought forward in arguably more sensible locations.

As regards protected characteristics, they are surely protected because those groups do suffer from discrimination. What is not covered are individuals having a prejudice, which we all do have. I think its pretty much impossible to not have a set of preconceptions. What is important, especially if you are in a role engaging with the public, is that you are always aware of any unconcious bias and ensure you take a moment to think before acting.

A pertinent question, given this thread is aimed at religion and sexual orientation, might be to what extent should groups be positively discriminated towards? LGBTQ+, and characters who are "non white" are hugely over-represented, for example, in BBC programming. And in employment there. I cant link to the OFCOM report that found BBC staff had a 3000x the level of transexuals than in the general population. Unsuprisingly, action groups for Palestine are made up of an awful lot of people who are from that diaspora. Its unrealistic to think that farming as an industry should be aiming to be 15% BME, in the same way that there should not be a 50/50 male female split in bra-fitting assistants at Marks and Sparks. Im not sure absolutely every program on the TV needs to tick every diversity box - its almost cliche now when a drama wheels out such a diverse list of characters as to be entirely unrepresentative of the population at large.

Given the above regarding positive discrimination and over-representation of ethnicity and sexuality in the mass media, Id be interested if you have a view of traveler portrayal? Im at a loss to think of a program I have watched where any of the storylines, or participants on shows like Masterchef, were openly of that background.

 

[primmiemoo]

primmiemoo if you are not a "fraud"? You have led one hell of a sheltered life if you havnt had or come across or read local stories of the "things" that the so called "traverllers" get up to? From going on what they call a holiday, park up either on a council park, or worse private car park, then threaten the owners ever pay us to go, or we will be here for a few weeks, trash the place, leave heaps of rubbish, human excrement etc? This has all happened local to me? Or time and time again,and going on right now in a neighbourhood near you, "targeting" vunerable people, ie pensioners, bully their way into doing a job? Then charging a fortune for the Job? thats not done "properley"? People then pay them to get them gone with discrace and dispair, that often "kills" the victims, of these disgraceful actions? Yes we dont like them for all this and a lot more?

I have heard about dreadful people who hide behind a protected name, and I'm absolutely not condoning their antisocial behaviours. I'd expect justice to be done when it comes to them, @bluebell , just like with other thieves, conmen/women, or hooligans of any other origin who go around in the same way. They don't turn up in the area where I live that often, but they have done ~ and they then play at being the victim to avoid accountability. They make life difficult for honest travelling people.

 

[primmiemoo]

Yes ive posted here a few times this morning, because all this is true, fact, ive seen it here? It really annoys me when people try to naively defend any of this or the people who do this?

The behaviour you describe is indefensible. That subculture needs to be addressed, however, or it is doomed to repeat, but very few people will be qualified to do that sort of work. Not enough, probably ~ which is no comfort to the victims of that antisocial behaviour.

 

[Aspiring Peasants]

The report is entirely fine by me.
A bit of adjustment is needed to be certain how over represented is over represented, class, education, medical history etc but I can't deny that that's what the numbers say.

If we're doing adult discussion not cartooish levels of bigotry (my presumption is that I should be thoroughly on ignore by the usual suspects so that should be eminently possible going forward) I'd say that the bigotry is in part a cause.

I don't think it's at all controversial (in light of the last ten pages of utter bilge) to say that there are a lot of people who are prejudiced against travellers, and who would absolutely act on that prejudice given the opportunity.

This compounds over time and across the community and through their interactions with the state and I'm sure can all see the problem with this.

Well, not all of us, Danallan reckons he can do the socioeconomic equivalent of levitation.
And probably not the guys posting about how prejudiced they are against people with protected characteristics on a public forum either.

I digress, for the planning, you might be interested to know what travellers have to say about it.
The system doesn't serve them either.

Why don’t you have a little trip away this summer and come to the Appleby Fair. Be sure to come for 2 weeks before and stay for 2 weeks after so you can enjoy the full cultural experience in the area

 

[essex man]

You keep at it, you'll get this one deleted too.

actually i got this one reinstated, with the thread i started.
Weird that they would then delete the evidence of their capitulation.
Or maybe not weird.
You were the one who complained and tried /failed to get this thread shut down?

 

[merino]

To be fair, I would say it was more surprising how under-represented white-collar crime is, given the real cost of it, in prisons. Prisons are, alas, almost entirely over-represented by men. Mainly young men. And with a degree of mental impairments or illnesses. All three being protected characteristics themselves.

Yes, it is fair to say that there would be a lot fewer traveller planning issues if there was decent provision in the first place. This seems to be why councils are much more willing to green light retrospective applications than be seen to promote or endorse sites brought forward in arguably more sensible locations.

As regards protected characteristics, they are surely protected because those groups do suffer from discrimination. What is not covered are individuals having a prejudice, which we all do have. I think its pretty much impossible to not have a set of preconceptions. What is important, especially if you are in a role engaging with the public, is that you are always aware of any unconcious bias and ensure you take a moment to think before acting.

A pertinent question, given this thread is aimed at religion and sexual orientation, might be to what extent should groups be positively discriminated towards? LGBTQ+, and characters who are "non white" are hugely over-represented, for example, in BBC programming. And in employment there. I cant link to the OFCOM report that found BBC staff had a 3000x the level of transexuals than in the general population. Unsuprisingly, action groups for Palestine are made up of an awful lot of people who are from that diaspora. Its unrealistic to think that farming as an industry should be aiming to be 15% BME, in the same way that there should not be a 50/50 male female split in bra-fitting assistants at Marks and Sparks. Im not sure absolutely every program on the TV needs to tick every diversity box - its almost cliche now when a drama wheels out such a diverse list of characters as to be entirely unrepresentative of the population at large.

Given the above regarding positive discrimination and over-representation of ethnicity and sexuality in the mass media, Id be interested if you have a view of traveler portrayal? Im at a loss to think of a program I have watched where any of the storylines, or participants on shows like Masterchef, were openly of that background.

Amusingly enough Christian.org says 3000% and pink says it's 100%.
It apparently all depends on how you define trans.

Part of me would love to see agriculture as an industry changed like that, an open and vibrant part of a modern economy, a meritocracy reflective of the society it feeds.

Reality obviously intrudes rather forcefully when you think about it for a second.

At least we're at a point where there are openly gay farmers.

I don't think I get to whinge about a disadvantaged group of people getting a leg up, partly cause I've received plenty in my time, partly cause the people they're competing against are largely privately educated and have also had plenty money thrown at them.

I've no idea how one goes about designing a system to do the job though as modern cinema shows I'm in good company.

John Connors who was in cardboard gangsters is apparently an example.
I had to Google that.
Kind of sad really, I'd bet you find a notable actor from any private school.

 

[Danllan]

We should be all inclusive and embrace the gay community, after all this could result in widening the circle of our friends.

When I was in the Army we thought so too, obviously the navy had that mindset long before, in fact we even managed to persuade the US Military of it, here's the proof:

 

[its yourself]

You don't really understand my point.
If i believe it to be true, it's not a lie.
That's why i am confused by his liar labelling.
people saying things that aren't true is not the same thing as lying.
You have to think what you are saying is untrue to be lying

You are the Donald.
Post truth post reality.

 

[essex man]

You are the Donald.
Post truth post reality.

Yep, that's pretty much meaningless.

 

[bluebell]

The truth is out there, just watch the you tube coverage of policing in london on st. georges day, in comparision of policing of the palistilian marches, the difference is so marked? Thats "double standards policing", same as as happened and is happening now with crime and the travellers, re, the rest of us? Yes double/different actions call it what? Thats what really anoys most of us?

 

[Danllan]

You don't really understand my point.
If i believe it to be true, it's not a lie.
That's why i am confused by his liar labelling.
people saying things that aren't true is not the same thing as lying.
You have to think what you are saying is untrue to be lying

This has been argued to death in the Courts... as things stand if someone states something as honest belief it may still be untrue; but it is only a lie if deceit is intended.

However the test can be subjective on the basis that an average person can be expected to make a reasonable and rational judgement about or an effort to establish the fact of what he is saying.

Obviously the more technical or specialist the subject and the speaker's claims to be expert, the higher the standard expected of him.

On the other side, believing something self-evidently does not in and of itself make the thing true, and believing when it is manifestly wrong or hard evidence has been adduced to disprove it is seen as perverse; refuting plain fact is also perverse.