Ewe Embryo Transfers

[Katarina]

Planning on flushing a few Texels and wondered what advice/experience people had on preparing the donors and recipients as friends have had very mixed success?

 

[gerr]

F

 

[Purli R]

@neilo will be yer guy

 

[neilo]

Planning on flushing a few Texels and wondered what advice/experience people had on preparing the donors and recipients as friends have had very mixed success?

Speak to your ET vet and they will be able to advise. It's in their interests to get good results too, after all.

Basically, you just want to treat them as you would any other sheep that you are looking to maximise lamb numbers, so they are all in optimum condition to perform. Sort any health issues and trace element deficiencies well in advance of the program, and ideally choose donors and recips with a good reproductive history. Picking sheep that struggled to get in lamb naturally, for whatever reason, won't help them to suddenly become productive.

I have changed from flushing early in the season, to doing a group in October, and results have been much better for it. It's always been a bit variable when you are pushing them against biological limits by going early. Obviously, if you ae chasing the next big thing in the ram sales, you will need them lambing early though.

@Ysgythan will have more experience flushing Texels than me.

 

[Ysgythan]

@Ysgythan will have more experience flushing Texels than me.

Flushed the odd ewe. What do you want to know @Katarina?

 

[Katarina]

Flushed the odd ewe. What do you want to know @Katarina?

Hi, best course of action, as @neilo suggested, first stop is speak to the vet, but have spoken to friends they've said they've had different results with different vets. Problem being is there are so many elements to factor in that, since the vets want good results too, I can't see this being the cause. More likely management of the ewes was my thinking. Again @neilo said treat them as you would any other ewe and doing them later rather than early also makes sense.

Went down the AI route last year using two different rams' frozen semen, same vet, same management of ewes, really good percentage with one ram, other only 50%. Since the cost is so steep I want to make sure I was covering as many bases as possible and not missing something simple that could make the difference.

 

[Ysgythan]

OK. My Top Tips:

• Get the best recipients you can. For us that’s Welsh Mules bought as lambs and kept free of the tup in the first winter.
• Follow the program to the letter. You will need teasers and they will need a raddle.
• Try to keep the Donor ewes’ condition even year round, but do try to give them a boost in the run up to the program.
• Avoid stressing the ewes if at all possible. Keep the dog tied when handling.
• Doing them in season is best. Pulling them forward is risky.
• Frozen semen does work but is a greater risk, especially from unproven tups.
• Remember if you do everything perfectly it’s still a bit of a lottery and the Vet will never know exactly what went on, good or bad.

 

[neilo]

@Katarina , do you have a vet in mind? If not, I would certainly recommend Ian McDougal at Farmgene (based near Shrewsbury but works all over the UK), or ABEurope (based Malvern & Edinburgh) if Ian can’t do it.
Whichever would need booking up ASAP as they get very busy during peak season, especially with Texels & Beltexes.

 

[Katarina]

OK. My Top Tips:

• Get the best recipients you can. For us that’s Welsh Mules bought as lambs and kept free of the tup in the first winter.
• Follow the program to the letter. You will need teasers and they will need a raddle.
• Try to keep the Donor ewes’ condition even year round, but do try to give them a boost in the run up to the program.
• Avoid stressing the ewes if at all possible. Keep the dog tied when handling.
• Doing them in season is best. Pulling them forward is risky.
• Frozen semen does work but is a greater risk, especially from unproven tups.
• Remember if you do everything perfectly it’s still a bit of a lottery and the Vet will never know exactly what went on, good or bad.

Wise words and very much appreciated. I'm using Texel cross Suffolk ewes, as they are what I've bred, have a couple of Texel teasers. They were put to the tup as yearlings this year and I've only selected the first time 'takers' and good mothers from them (their lambs strong and healthy). They're quite big, framey ewes and have done well on little input so hoping that continues. Would you also recommend going for a later date rather than push them earlier? 'Keeping the stress levels down' - I'm planning on bringing them in for a week or so and just keeping them quiet, what are your thoughts?

 

[Katarina]

@Katarina , do you have a vet in mind? If not, I would certainly recommend Ian McDougal at Farmgene (based near Shrewsbury but works all over the UK), or ABEurope (based Malvern & Edinburgh) if Ian can’t do it.
Whichever would need booking up ASAP as they get very busy during peak season, especially with Texels & Beltexes.

AB was who I was going to go with and thanks for the heads up, will get straight on it!

 

[neilo]

Wise words and very much appreciated. I'm using Texel cross Suffolk ewes, as they are what I've bred, have a couple of Texel teasers. They were put to the tup as yearlings this year and I've only selected the first time 'takers' and good mothers from them (their lambs strong and healthy). They're quite big, framey ewes and have done well on little input so hoping that continues. Would you also recommend going for a later date rather than push them earlier? 'Keeping the stress levels down' - I'm planning on bringing them in for a week or so and just keeping them quiet, what are your thoughts?

I always bring my donors in a week or so before I start programming them, where I can keep them on a stable (& good) diet and away from dogs (& walkers ). Seems to work well, and makes life easier for everyone.

 

[unlacedgecko]

I always bring my donors in a week or so before I start programming them, where I can keep them on a stable (& good) diet and away from dogs (& walkers ). Seems to work well, and makes life easier for everyone.

Do you have a ball park cost for ET work please? Assuming the embryos are supplied from a 3rd party.

 

[Ysgythan]

Wise words and very much appreciated. I'm using Texel cross Suffolk ewes, as they are what I've bred, have a couple of Texel teasers. They were put to the tup as yearlings this year and I've only selected the first time 'takers' and good mothers from them (their lambs strong and healthy). They're quite big, framey ewes and have done well on little input so hoping that continues. Would you also recommend going for a later date rather than push them earlier? 'Keeping the stress levels down' - I'm planning on bringing them in for a week or so and just keeping them quiet, what are your thoughts?

Recipients is an awkward one. The younger the ewe the better she takes, but you run the risk of inexperience at lambing. It’s a balance to strike. It’s another reason we like Mules, they are cracking mothers.

For recipients big framey ewes are exactly what you need. We tup anything that doesn’t take and give them an armchair ride in preparation for the next year. There’s no point at weaning crossbred lambs thinking “hell I should have kept these ewes a bit better, there’s only a few weeks to AI day” especially since we lamb them a good month later than the pures. Get on top of health issues well in advance, especially feet. You do not want lame recipients.

We flush in October and they’re all well in season. By now you’d struggle to find an earlier booking anyway at a guess.

We don’t bring them in. For a few weeks before the program we give them a handful of grub in the yard and run them out through the race twice a day. When you start jabbing then it’s almost part of the routine. Literally a handful to give them a bit of an energy boost, you don’t want them too fat, especially in an Indian Summer. On the other hand we don’t have the walkers/walkers dogs issue so it’s each to his/her own. If you bring them in I’d still run them through your handling system to feed them.

 

[Katarina]

Recipients is an awkward one. The younger the ewe the better she takes, but you run the risk of inexperience at lambing. It’s a balance to strike. It’s another reason we like Mules, they are cracking mothers.

For recipients big framey ewes are exactly what you need. We tup anything that doesn’t take and give them an armchair ride in preparation for the next year. There’s no point at weaning crossbred lambs thinking “hell I should have kept these ewes a bit better, there’s only a few weeks to AI day” especially since we lamb them a good month later than the pures. Get on top of health issues well in advance, especially feet. You do not want lame recipients.

We flush in October and they’re all well in season. By now you’d struggle to find an earlier booking anyway at a guess.

We don’t bring them in. For a few weeks before the program we give them a handful of grub in the yard and run them out through the race twice a day. When you start jabbing then it’s almost part of the routine. Literally a handful to give them a bit of an energy boost, you don’t want them too fat, especially in an Indian Summer. On the other hand we don’t have the walkers/walkers dogs issue so it’s each to his/her own. If you bring them in I’d still run them through your handling system to feed them.

I've been really harsh and only selected the ones in the best health doing the best job. Was concerned about using yearlings as I wouldn't know what to expect and didn't want a repeat of the problems that were my best yearling texels this year, some of them just didn't do a good job despite me throwing everything at them. OH's yearlings to a beltex have done an exceptional job however....which he likes to point out as often as possible .

You're right, rang AB and it's looking like early October so takes the possibility of any other date away which is one concern done with. Will be interesting to see what I get as other people have had some cracking percentages whereas others have been a dead (and very expensive) loss. But thank you and @neilo for your sound advice, sounds obvious when you both say it but given me plenty to get on with......feel like I'm only just getting over lambing and here I go again

 

[Ysgythan]

Do you have a ball park cost for ET work please? Assuming the embryos are supplied from a 3rd party.

To flush your own ewe costs about £400, but that’s not where the main costs are.

Recipients - fine if you have some, but finding MV ones if you need them can be tricky.

Service - some charge upwards of £200 per donor to have the tup available for fresh semen. Frozen semen can be £40 plus VAT per straw and you may need 4 for every donor.

Hold rate - if you get a rubbish result the Vet may do a deal. However, if not the costs are split over the embryos you implant. Anything over a hold rate of 70% is a bonus.

So valuing embryos to buy is tricky. The best way I think if you want somebody else’s genetics is to do a contract flush, where you split all the costs and the embryos equally.

What people don’t think about is an odd number of embryos, and doing the split after sweeping or even after scanning. Whatever you agree write it down as I’ve heard some horror stories about after the event skullduggery.

 

[neilo]

Do you have a ball park cost for ET work please? Assuming the embryos are supplied from a 3rd party.

I’ve never put bought embryos in, but have put my own frozen embryos in a couple of times, with very ‘iffy’ results (20% hold once!). However, I put a bunch of imported Dorper embryos into my recips for a German vet once, who then payed me per pregnant recip. Much to my surprise, they held at 80%.
I have 11 frozen embryos to go in here in a fortnight, but I really would try to implant fresh if at all possible. If someone is flushing some ewes on contract for you, program your recips and arrange to implant fresh if at all possible.

 

[neilo]

Recipients is an awkward one. The younger the ewe the better she takes, but you run the risk of inexperience at lambing. It’s a balance to strike. It’s another reason we like Mules, they are cracking mothers.

For recipients big framey ewes are exactly what you need. We tup anything that doesn’t take and give them an armchair ride in preparation for the next year. There’s no point at weaning crossbred lambs thinking “hell I should have kept these ewes a bit better, there’s only a few weeks to AI day” especially since we lamb them a good month later than the pures. Get on top of health issues well in advance, especially feet.

I beg to differ. I had my best conception rate ever from ET last year, using Highlander recips (not 'big, framey' sheep, but known easy lambers and god mothers). As I'd already used up most of my Highlander recips from the previous year, on an earlier flush, I pulled another 60 mature ewes in from my commercial flock, all having been weaned 6 weeks before the ET date. I don't usually implant as singles, but one of the donors lost a CIDR, and I'd allowed more than enough recips for a good flush, so I had plenty to use. I implanted 48 embryos as singles and 46 held. A few of the recips were 2 yr olds, but the rest were mostly between 5 & 7 (although Highlanders seem to live productively for a couple of years longer than mules anyway ime). I was aiming for good mothers that knew what they wee doing, before anything else.

Personally I would avoid any terminal sire crosses as recips, where it is an option. Any easy lambing, maternal ewe will be a good option, but obviously mv accreditation complicates sourcing if you don't already have your own.

I could have about 50 suitable mv accredited Highlander shearling ewes available, if anyone's looking for recips…...

 

[Ysgythan]

I beg to differ.

Well the Vet you recommended in your earlier post would beg to differ with you...

 

[Ysgythan]

Personally I would avoid any terminal sire crosses as recips, where it is an option.

We keep our Texel x Mules as they’re born MV. They do just as good if not a better job of rearing than the mules and they keep condition on their backs better. They last longer. Lambing would be marginally easier with the mules. Second crosses may be pushing it, depending how typey they are I suppose.

 

[neilo]

Well the Vet you recommended in your earlier post would beg to differ with you...

I know.