Farm safety

[Vader]

Signage - what exactly? Not many legally needed and very little changes with time.
LOLER - HSE advice is that formal thorough examination isn't needed for tractors and foreloaders. Otherwise, it's a phone call to arrange.
Compressor tests? Most small tanks will be below the PSSR threshold and not need anything done. A small farm doesn't need one above 250 bar-litres.
Ladder inspections can be pre-use checks, I think. In any case they don't need any formality last time I checked.
Grinders without guards - only an idiot would.
First aid box - again, why not? A £20 buy off Amazon - takes longer to type this than to buy.
Overhead wire appraisals - I have no insight.

Looking at figures, those don't case deaths...
Can not teach a cow health and safety.

 

[Drirwin]

No, I don't think it would be great at all. Inspectors have to have independence, and that would be compromised if they were involved in the formal decision making process. They can advise, and they can guide the business owner (and they do), but they cannot hold formal responsibility for business decisions. That is a fundamental part of our legislative system for Health and Safety in the UK - it is goal seeking in terms of risk minimisation but is not prescriptive.

I wasn’t thinking about business decisions, I was thinking that if an HSE inspection identified some core issues and the farmer didn’t have the finances to fix them, that the ability of the HSE inspector to then say - ok in that case you can apply for x grant to help you get that fixed, would be a positive thing - onus still on farmer to make decision and apply for grant but financial support is likely, in my opinion, to support changes.

 

[Highland Mule]

I wasn’t thinking about business decisions, I was thinking that if an HSE inspection identified some core issues and the farmer didn’t have the finances to fix them, that the ability of the HSE inspector to then say - ok in that case you can apply for x grant to help you get that fixed, would be a positive thing - onus still on farmer to make decision and apply for grant but financial support is likely, in my opinion, to support changes.

Have you ever met a farmer who didn't plead poverty though? Truth is that most safety issues are relatively cheap compared to business asset values, albeit perhaps not in cash flow terms. And the HSE cannot be formally endorsing a particular solution to a shortfall either - most core issues will have multiple potential solutions that could work.

It's a nice idea, but I think that it would compromise HSE integrity as the enforcing authority. A hand-off to a farming advisor could perhaps work, and my experience is that HSE will give helpful advice of that nature, in terms of steering the business towards them finding the solution.

Also need to remember that most farms will go decades without seeing an HSE inspector too - the primary responsibility for safety lies with the employer and we should not need to be proactively inspected in order to be safe.

 

[kiwi pom]

Absolutely - although there are some pragmatic private consultants out there.

This is worth a reprise, I think. https://www.hse.gov.uk/myth/mythofthemonth.htm

Yes there are but as with everything nowadays finding 'good' is becoming difficult. 'great' is almost impossible.
One of the big problems with companies here is H&S is starting to be merged with the pointless profession of HR
Plenty of job adds now for HR/H&S manager and it seems its the person with HR experience (whatever that is) that get the job. so there's no actual knowledge of the job they're supposed to make safer.

 

[Goweresque]

That is a fundamental part of our legislative system for Health and Safety in the UK - it is goal seeking in terms of risk minimisation but is not prescriptive.

I think this is the fundamental issue with H&S in the UK. Its actually not prescriptive enough. It just says 'You must minimise risk'. But doesn't give people any practical instructions as to how to do that. This approach may work fine when dealing with large corporate organisations, they will have formal policies etc for everything, and can afford consultants to draw up and implement them.

But for private individuals (which is what many farmers are) thats a licence to take risks. Because everyone's approach to risk is different. What farming needs is a big book given to them by HSE of Dos and Don'ts. Then if you follow the book and an accident happens you're OK. Haven't followed the book, prosecution. Everyone knows where they are. But HSE don't want that approach, because it puts them on the spot - they've got to decide what is allowed and what isn't. They prefer to put that responsibility on the individual, and then declare that whatever they did was wrong when something goes wrong. All power, no responsibility.

 

[kiwi pom]

If 1970’s farm gate prices are so acceptable then why has machinery costs sky rocketed lately? On that basis I think pto gaurds should be free and the fitting of them. Dealers can make it back with all the money they’ve made on the sale.
I jest about the last bit but that’s what we need. Get rid of subs for being an “active farmer” level the playing field and make safety gear like that 100% funded.
Funding for trained people to come and clear gutters with the appropriate machinery -not saying 100% but subsidise it so that it’s possible to get someone in for 2 hours to do that job.
Subs for short term help on farms. Ie Tb testing. One of the major reasons we got bigger was in order to be able to take staff on so that things like that were easier. No one wants to turn up to test 50 cows they need a full days work.
Foot paths being moved easily when they go through a farm yard. That should be just a give.
temporary moving of footpaths of fields with cows and calves or any livestock. Encourage rotational grazing and back fencing so that they’re only closed for a couple days at a time.
get rid of the HSE attitude of them and us. First and foremost it needs to be an advisory service and then push for enforcing when people don’t change.

Are the HSE on farm much nowadays. I can only ever remember seeing them once in all the time I was still in the UK.
I think the 7610 man said upthread he had a visit in 98 and I know @neilo had a visit recently.
Anyone else on here with any recent visit reports?

 

[Highland Mule]

I think this is the fundamental issue with H&S in the UK. Its actually not prescriptive enough. It just says 'You must minimise risk'. But doesn't give people any practical instructions as to how to do that. This approach may work fine when dealing with large corporate organisations, they will have formal policies etc for everything, and can afford consultants to draw up and implement them.

But for private individuals (which is what many farmers are) thats a licence to take risks. Because everyone's approach to risk is different. What farming needs is a big book given to them by HSE of Dos and Don'ts. Then if you follow the book and an accident happens you're OK. Haven't followed the book, prosecution. Everyone knows where they are. But HSE don't want that approach, because it puts them on the spot - they've got to decide what is allowed and what isn't. They prefer to put that responsibility on the individual, and then declare that whatever they did was wrong when something goes wrong. All power, no responsibility.

They do, albeit in a way that gives us the opportunity to chose differently if we can justify it - it’s called Codes of Practice and there are plenty published (as NeilO knows..). The individual farms can follow them and are covered, or spend some time to justify not following them, if they feel circumstances are better

I’m fundamentally opposed to prescriptive H&S, because I see what goes wrong in those countries that do it this way - the Ford Pinto was “code compliant” but would never be considered as “ALARP”. Yes, it places responsibility on employers, but it also allows innovation and thought, and it pushes standards ever higher. Not ideal for one man band small business, but works very well for most others. YMMV.

As for risk tolerance, we do have guidance as to what is acceptable, albeit it is difficult to read across to all circumstances. As a general rule, if something looks dodgy, it’s probably not the best way to do it.

 

[Drirwin]

Have you ever met a farmer who didn't plead poverty though? Truth is that most safety issues are relatively cheap compared to business asset values, albeit perhaps not in cash flow terms. And the HSE cannot be formally endorsing a particular solution to a shortfall either - most core issues will have multiple potential solutions that could work.

It's a nice idea, but I think that it would compromise HSE integrity as the enforcing authority. A hand-off to a farming advisor could perhaps work, and my experience is that HSE will give helpful advice of that nature, in terms of steering the business towards them finding the solution.

Also need to remember that most farms will go decades without seeing an HSE inspector too - the primary responsibility for safety lies with the employer and we should not need to be proactively inspected in order to be safe.

I see what you mean. However, in terms of behaviour change I do think we need to make it generally easier and cheaper, to engage in good safety practice, along with some cultural change - as an example, my most recent focus is folks wearing a helmet when using an atv. My husband uses an atv and I wanted to get him a helmet (this was ages ago) - it took ages to identify which was the best helmet, which met safety standards, then find somewhere that sold that helmet and at a reasonable price. I got one but it took longer than expected and was more expensive than expected, and I just thought to myself - how many farmers would just say ‘stuff it, don’t have time to sort this’? Surely providing helmets at the point of sale, or even (ideally) included in the sale price, would be a positive step towards a culture of helmet wearing?
NB I realise this has moved away from HSE - my main point is I think all safety equipment should be reasonable priced and easy to get hold of

 

[Vader]

As a side thought...
If I want to go up a ladder or work at height I need safety gear or h&s would be after me.

But when I then go rock climbing, I some times free climb. But that's OK because it's not work...

Accidents happen and sadly farms seem to get more, but nearly all are self employed ppl who make the choice.
Unfortunately odd times ACCIDENTS happen. It's called and ACCIDENT for a reason.
Trouble now with the claim culture, there is never an accident, it's always some ones fault.

 

[Headless chicken]

Is "them and us" really your experience of HSE? I suspect you've had the exception rather than the norm if it is. I've had dealings with dozens of inspectors over the years and all have been excellent - helpful and advising and only pushing when needed.

Yes there are but as with everything nowadays finding 'good' is becoming difficult. 'great' is almost impossible.
One of the big problems with companies here is H&S is starting to be merged with the pointless profession of HR
Plenty of job adds now for HR/H&S manager and it seems its the person with HR experience (whatever that is) that get the job. so there's no actual knowledge of the job they're supposed to make safer.

ill Admit I’ve had no run ins with HSE inspectors yet BUT I should have. They should be here to advice us. They need to be approachable sensible and open to work together. We are about to extend our lagoon andsilage clamps the nrw are being brilliant and we’re working together to get theproper outcome

 

[Chae1]

Like it or not Health and safety will soon become part of farm assurance schemes. If you speak to anyone producing veg etc I think its already part of there assurance schemes.

Supermarkets want to be seen to be buying from producers that take there staffs and there own welfare seriously.

We've just bought about £200s worth of safety signs to put up around farm. Doubtful it will make it much safer but if somebody has a accident and they've ignored sign it might mean the depth of sh!t we are in is less deep.

Nobody's said it yet, but one of reasons for doing health and safety on farm is to cover your arse incase the worst happens. The fines and fees hse can rack up are huge.

 

[egbert]

We are just starting the search for a farm to buy after selling up here. One of our non-negotiable criteria, which had already seen us discount some otherwise lovely farms, is absolutely no public right of way through the yard.

Ideally no public rights of way on the farm at all. We are cattle keepers. A significant number of the fatalities each year are members of the public crossing cattle fields.

Which'll be fine for you if you can find one - although you'd be just as liable if a trespasser gets flattened.

The bigger question is how do we farm where the public are?

 

[Bill Payer]

As a side thought...
If I want to go up a ladder or work at height I need safety gear or h&s would be after me.

But when I then go rock climbing, I some times free climb. But that's OK because it's not work...

Accidents happen and sadly farms seem to get more, but nearly all are self employed ppl who make the choice.
Unfortunately odd times ACCIDENTS happen. It's called and ACCIDENT for a reason.
Trouble now with the claim culture, there is never an accident, it's always some ones fault.

So what Is your definition of an accident?

 

[puppet]

Are the HSE on farm much nowadays. I can only ever remember seeing them once in all the time I was still in the UK.
I think the 7610 man said upthread he had a visit in 98 and I know @neilo had a visit recently.
Anyone else on here with any recent visit reports?

They did around 100 farms here last year. Sold out of warning signs locally. Telehandlers and ATVs were a problem.
Fair emphasis on cattle but you cannot do everything without going into a pen at some point.

 

[Highland Mule]

ill Admit I’ve had no run ins with HSE inspectors yet BUT I should have. They should be here to advice us. They need to be approachable sensible and open to work together. We are about to extend our lagoon andsilage clamps the nrw are being brilliant and we’re working together to get theproper outcome

They attend the Agricultural shows wit their exhibits, they work closely with our unions, they have a pretty good website and their telephone number is in the book. My experience is that they are approachable, but you may have other experiences - have you tried? Remember, we don't pay enough taxes to have all agencies overstaffed to the point of blanket ad hoc visits - which is something I'm sure most of us are happy about and would certainly complain if we did.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

They did around 100 farms here last year. Sold out of warning signs locally. Telehandlers and ATVs were a problem.
Fair emphasis on cattle but you cannot do everything without going into a pen at some point.

Much like proceeding with TB testing but maintaining social distancing. It can probably be done with adult cattle in a crush but how do you maintain 2 metres distance when doing a 42 day old calf?

When it comes to cattle there it's not possible to completely alleviate the risk.

 

[Vader]

So what Is your definition of an accident?

Same as the dictionary.

1. an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.
   
   
2. an event that happens by chance or that is without apparent or deliberate cause.

 

[2wheels]

Like it or not Health and safety will soon become part of farm assurance schemes. If you speak to anyone producing veg etc I think its already part of there assurance schemes.

Supermarkets want to be seen to be buying from producers that take there staffs and there own welfare seriously.

We've just bought about £200s worth of safety signs to put up around farm. Doubtful it will make it much safer but if somebody has a accident and they've ignored sign it might mean the depth of sh!t we are in is less deep.

Nobody's said it yet, but one of reasons for doing health and safety on farm is to cover your arse incase the worst happens. The fines and fees hse can rack up are huge.

View attachment 890072

don't mean to be sarcastic or a clever dick but should there be free range kids on the farm? i know ours were often out and about but with hindsight we were wrong. i take the point of the sign as a warning to visitors and as a reminder to all on the farm.

 

[Highland Mule]

don't mean to be sarcastic or a clever dick but should there be free range kids on the farm? i know ours were often out and about but with hindsight we were wrong. i take the point of the sign as a warning to visitors and as a reminder to all on the farm.

Harsh, but we all do and provided that the kids are kept out of the most hazardous areas I see no harm. I was going to point out that the only two signs that I could make out (the top one and the CCTV warning) were both nothing to do with H&S regulations and couldn't be blamed on it.

This https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/l64.pdf is worth a quick scan if you have a few minutes. Amongst others, it has the following statement:

The Regulations require employers to ensure that safety signs are provided (or are in place) and maintained in circumstances where there is a significant risk to health and safety that has not been removed or controlled by other methods. This is only appropriate where use of a sign can further reduce the risk. The other methods may include engineering controls or safe systems of work and may be required under other relevant legislation. Safety signs are not a substitute for those other methods of control.

In determining when and where to use safety signs, employers must take into account the results of the risk assessment made under the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999 (the Management Regulations).2 This assessment should identify hazards, the risks associated with those hazards, and the control measures to be taken. When those control measures have been put in place there may be a significant ‘residual’ risk such that employees must be warned of any further measures necessary. Safety signs should be used if they will help to further reduce this residual risk. If the risk is not significant there may be no need to provide a sign.

My bolding, but a reminder that a) you may have a legitimate and defensible reason to not have signs, and b) you shouldn't pepper the place with so many that workers get sign blindness and don't know what's important.

 

[2wheels]

Harsh, but we all do and provided that the kids are kept out of the most hazardous areas I see no harm. I was going to point out that the only two signs that I could make out (the top one and the CCTV warning) were both nothing to do with H&S regulations and couldn't be blamed on it.

This https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/l64.pdf is worth a quick scan if you have a few minutes. Amongst others, it has the following statement:



My bolding, but a reminder that a) you may have a legitimate and defensible reason to not have signs, and b) you shouldn't pepper the place with so many that workers get sign blindness and don't know what's important.

wasn't meant to be harsh, just looking at it from a different angle and no reflection on chae as he is doing the right thing.