Farmer Roy's Random Thoughts - I never said it was easy.

[Farmer Roy]

Do they use them in oz?

They did, in the 70's & 80's, in the early days of min till when glyphosate was still very expensive.
They left most of the stubble / residue on the surface with minimal soil disturbance, which was their big advantage
I have one, & I know of a few around me.
Personally, with increasing resistance to glyphosate, I think they have a real place in our system again

 

[Henarar]

Even the adverts are taunting me.....

View attachment 778672

the Michelin man is waving to you he is your new best mate

 

[New Puritan]

Ok if you want a stale seedbed but that's a bit "off" for this thread

A blade just below the surface like that would be about as discriminating as Roundup

When Roy uses one it is to help retain his dead surface cover material while preventing unwanted weed species producing seed so appropriate for his climate.

Just my thoughts, no offence intended.

Not at all offended. I can learn from all types of farmer and grower. Apologies if I have come in half way through a conversation, I wasn't sure if that machine is one that Roy owns/uses or just a library photo.

In a wider row crop situation in arid conditions I can see how it would work in a zero till operation as it would cut along the surface. In the UK it's too damp most of the time for them to work, unless you run them very slightly deeper so cut the roots off and let them dry out, assuming you do it on a dry day. Roy isn't going to get the rush of meadow grass and weeds etc. filling in the rows that I do here so the application of the tool is going to be different. The advantage of planting into soil that's dry on the top and damp further down is you'll have far more control as to what germinates, which is why no-till is the sensible system there.

It's not really a stale seedbed tool as I don't want to encourage more weeds once the rows have established - it's more to knock the weeds back a stage so that the crop can get ahead of them. New weeds will always grow after the hoes have been through, but there comes a point where hopefully the crop is going to dominate.

It depends on how the tool is used as to how discriminating it is, the same as with Roundup. The hoe is set to go between the crop rows, so it is discriminating in that sense, assuming my mate on the back steers it correctly(!). However if I were to grow black medic between the rows to provide low ground cover then it wouldn't make sense to also use the hoe. I think I recall seeing a photo of @Farmer Roy 's showing Roundup being sprayed between the rows, so it that sense it was doing the same thing.

 

[hendrebc]

Just a thought that might be a stupid idea to people who understand arable. Could you broadcast seeds on so there are no gaps between rows for weeds to establish? They say grass establishes better broadcast than drilled for this reason. It would only work if it was wet enough for them to germinate on the surface of course.

 

[Farmer Roy]

Not at all offended. I can learn from all types of farmer and grower. Apologies if I have come in half way through a conversation, I wasn't sure if that machine is one that Roy owns/uses or just a library photo.

In a wider row crop situation in arid conditions I can see how it would work in a zero till operation as it would cut along the surface. In the UK it's too damp most of the time for them to work, unless you run them very slightly deeper so cut the roots off and let them dry out, assuming you do it on a dry day. Roy isn't going to get the rush of meadow grass and weeds etc. filling in the rows that I do here so the application of the tool is going to be different. The advantage of planting into soil that's dry on the top and damp further down is you'll have far more control as to what germinates, which is why no-till is the sensible system there.

It's not really a stale seedbed tool as I don't want to encourage more weeds once the rows have established - it's more to knock the weeds back a stage so that the crop can get ahead of them. New weeds will always grow after the hoes have been through, but there comes a point where hopefully the crop is going to dominate.

It depends on how the tool is used as to how discriminating it is, the same as with Roundup. The hoe is set to go between the crop rows, so it is discriminating in that sense, assuming my mate on the back steers it correctly(!). However if I were to grow black medic between the rows to provide low ground cover then it wouldn't make sense to also use the hoe. I think I recall seeing a photo of @Farmer Roy 's showing Roundup being sprayed between the rows, so it that sense it was doing the same thing.

Inter row cultivating used to be a VERY common practice here on our row crops on wider ( 75 - 100 cm ) spacings, especially in crops that had limited chemical control options, such as broad leaves in cotton / sunflowers / various legumes, or grasses in maize / Sorghum.
Trouble is, not really compatible with zero till & trying to retain as much groundcover as possible - even with one single wide sweep between the rows, that was still disturbing the ground quite a bit, every metre . . .
The next stage after that was targeted & shielded spraying between the rows, generally with glyphosate as apart from covering a wide range of target species, isn't very volatile & less susceptible to drift & off target hits than many other chems


I have a blade plough like I posted pics of, it is a machine that soil conditions have to be right for it to work. Too damp & it's a disaster, too dry & you can have trouble getting the blades to penetrate properly.
These machines are for full cultivation across the width, not for row weeding. The blades are 6' & overlap - giving a full weed kill
Talking about steering your cultivator between the rows - we used to inter row cultivate cotton with an 8 row ( 8 metres wide ) bar, at speeds of up to 9km / hour, steering the tractor by hand, ( with no one at the back steering the cultivator ) long before the days of auto steer. Talk about a high stress job

 

[New Puritan]

Just a thought that might be a stupid idea to people who understand arable. Could you broadcast seeds on so there are no gaps between rows for weeds to establish? They say grass establishes better broadcast than drilled for this reason. It would only work if it was wet enough for them to germinate on the surface of course.

I think people do that sometimes. They'd normally harrow them in afterwards though. I think @Bury the Trash has said he does it (?).

In my (admittedly limited) experience, it's not the little weeds that can only grow between the rows that are an issue, it's the dirty great docks that grow where they please that cause me problems, so the row spacing isn't the critical thing if you see what I mean?

Small, low growing weeds just act like a green manure and I don't really mind them TBH. Something will always grow in bare soil, so I just need to influence what it is rather than trying to stop everything.

 

[Farmer Roy]

Just a thought that might be a stupid idea to people who understand arable. Could you broadcast seeds on so there are no gaps between rows for weeds to establish? They say grass establishes better broadcast than drilled for this reason. It would only work if it was wet enough for them to germinate on the surface of course.

Depends on the crop type & desirable populations / ha

Wheat, barley, canola, those sort of crops, close row spacings or better "seed bed utilisation" generally means more competition & crowding out of weeds. So, it that situation, it does make sense. Somewhere on TFF I talked about the dilemma & my compromises with planting equipment between narrow row spaces for competition & needing wider rows for stubble / residue flow & also to minimise cost . . .
However, many of our summer row crops are planted at very low populations / ha ( say 50,000
/ ha ). Part of also using very wide row spacings ( in your eyes ) in these crops is also to conserve that inter row soil moisture for later in the season as crop roots access it, giving moisture reserves to carry the crop through to maturity.
So much of UK management seems to be about draining fields & hoping it rains every week - ALL our management is about conserving & storing as much soil moisture as possible in the expectation it may never rain again . . .

 

[New Puritan]

Inter row cultivating used to be a VERY common practice here on our row crops on wider ( 75 - 100 cm ) spacings, especially in crops that had limited chemical control options, such as broad leaves in cotton / sunflowers / various legumes, or grasses in maize / Sorghum.
Trouble is, not really compatible with zero till & trying to retain as much groundcover as possible - even with one single wide sweep between the rows, that was still disturbing the ground quite a bit, every metre . . .
The next stage after that was targeted & shielded spraying between the rows, generally with glyphosate as apart from covering a wide range of target species, isn't very volatile & less susceptible to drift & off target hits than many other chems


I have a blade plough like I posted pics of, it is a machine that soil conditions have to be right for it to work. Too damp & it's a disaster, too dry & you can have trouble getting the blades to penetrate properly.
These machines are for full cultivation across the width, not for row weeding. The blades are 6' & overlap - giving a full weed kill
Talking about steering your cultivator between the rows - we used to inter row cultivate cotton with an 8 row ( 8 metres wide ) bar, at speeds of up to 9km / hour, steering the tractor by hand, ( with no one at the back steering the cultivator ) long before the days of auto steer. Talk about a high stress job

Aah, so as I suspected this was me coming in half way and not understanding what was going on! I hadn't realised your machine was for full width work rather than inter-row. Was your inter-row one front mounted? They are supposedly easier to operate the faster you go, though I've never personally used one. The sugarbeet guys often seem to use them here.

 

[Farmer Roy]

No, inter row cultivators were always rear mounted on the 3PL in my personal experience.
I have seen pics of old / small ones in the US that were mid mounted, but for bigger 6 - 12 metre ones, always rear mounted

 

[Farmer Roy]

The main advantage of the blade plough in the Australian / North American environment was that it allowed full cut cultivation with minimal disturbance to the soil surface, leaving all the stubble & residue intact. Especially back when glyphosate was $20 / litre 40 years ago . . .
The min till & zero till experiences between us are very similar - a whole world away from the UK / EU

 

[Karliboy]

Got the call of my mate about the heifer he jabbed to bring it forward for controlled calving time.
Heifer started early by all accounts, it wasn’t really supposed to start until after 8am but feet were there at 5.30 for milking time.
Anyway it’s only a average size calf apparently, but he had to put jack on to help it along.
He said it was still very tight even then, so I’m feeling slightly better as it looks like a breed issue from the heifers sire history as to why I’m having such problems myself and not just myself doing things badly.

 

[Farmer Roy]

 

[Farmer Roy]

Got the call of my mate about the heifer he jabbed to bring it forward for controlled calving time.
Heifer started early by all accounts, it wasn’t really supposed to start until after 8am but feet were there at 5.30 for milking time.
Anyway it’s only a average size calf apparently, but he had to put jack on to help it along.
He said it was still very tight even then, so I’m feeling slightly better as it looks like a breed issue from the heifers sire history as to why I’m having such problems myself and not just myself doing things badly.

One of the reasons the various "old" British breeds like Angus, Hereford & Shotthorn, along with the various Bos Indicus breeds & cross breeds IS there ease of calving. That's very important in our environment - certainly can't afford vets or C sections . . .

 

[andyt87]

Looks like a breed issue from the heifers sire history as to why I’m having such problems myself and not just myself doing things badly.

Feel for you on this one, but like you say at least it is a genetic issue with the heifers and not a feeding/management issue. What age were they calving at out of interest? They look a good size. Any idea on the Sire name? He is obviously one to avoid for replacements

 

[hendrebc]

One of the reasons the various "old" British breeds like Angus, Hereford & Shotthorn, along with the various Bos Indicus breeds & cross breeds IS there ease of calving. That's very important in our environment - certainly can't afford vets or C sections . . .

The old British breeds are mako a comeback here too for that reason. About half of my old limousine cows will be going this year and replaced with half Angus heifers put to a Hereford bull. It's a common theme on a lot of farms all over the place.
@Karliboy I had a thought about your heifers. They say some bulls with easy calving ebv's are easy calving because they are narrow hipped so don't get stuck half way out. But the heifers from that bull will also have narrow hips and be difficult to calve themselves. Could that be what happened with yours?

 

[Karliboy]

It could be a logical suggestion that you have there @hendrebc
I can’t give guarantees that it’s a genetic issue but it certainly a common problem across these heifers.
They were calving at about 26 months,
I don’t know how much detail my mate records when he ai’S his heifers to what straw as he normaly has a good selection of straws and it’s neary 3 years ago since they were bred.

 

[Karliboy]

I have a handful of Angus cross dairy cows that I got as heifers. Most of them have grown into big angry buggers that are always causing trouble. Most of them are going down the road this summer after calving.
I like the blues as they are so easy to manage and placid and I’ve always done well with them in the past that’s why I got these.
Oh well never mind Lesson learnt the expensive way. I’ve only one more to calve out of these 4 now fingers crossed.

 

[glasshouse]

The main advantage of the blade plough in the Australian / North American environment was that it allowed full cut cultivation with minimal disturbance to the soil surface, leaving all the stubble & residue intact. Especially back when glyphosate was $20 / litre 40 years ago . . .
The min till & zero till experiences between us are very similar - a whole world away from the UK / EU

The main reason canadians used them was to catch snow inthe stubble to get some moisture

 

[Blaithin]

I believe there is a blade plow attachment for seeders here. Cuts out the root system and deposits the crop seed at the same time. That way it’s taking out the use of pre seeding spraying.

Has to be the right land though. Too many rocks in the field and I can’t see it going well!

 

[New Puritan]

Now I've read back and understand what people are talking about in respect of the Noble plough, it reminds me of something I saw a year or so back when I went to look round another farm that supplies the same wholesaler. They were growing beetroot for the smoothie market* on raised beds at a field scale (so very much not zero till). They had a machine that does effectively what the Noble plough does, in that it went along and cut right under the bed horizontaly to cut the roots for any big weeds.

*I never want to drink a beetroot smoothie btw. I wish anyone who does, or supplies the beetroot, well of course.