Free range eggs. What?

[Daniel]

Common sense being just say they are free range?

I want to be letting the birds out on March 1st.

But if we are told we can't then yes.

If they were free range for 12 weeks then why aren't they at 14 weeks?

 

[Pasty]

I want to be letting the birds out on March 1st.

But if we are told we can't then yes.

If they were free range for 12 weeks then why aren't they at 14 weeks?

I suppose a standard has to be a standard, until you bend it to suit the circumstances. How about 30 weeks? Why not? 72 weeks? Be alright.

How far do we bend the standard and how far does that allow us to bend it next time (a little farther)?.

If there is a free range standard, that is that. If producers can't meet it for whatever reason then that is too bad. They didn't meet the standard. That's a shame. I've spent probably over a grand on nets and tarps this winter. That's a shame. Do I get some sort of leeway or compo? Nope. Nothing. Just a few scathing looks as a 'back yard' flock keeper. They didn't even tell me the restrictions were on. I read it on Facebook.

Will DEFRA take any notice of what date would suit my business when they lift the restriction? Nope. Will they lift it on Feb 28th just in time for free range to stay legally free range? Yep. All is well with the world.

 

[Daniel]

I suppose a standard has to be a standard, until you bend it to suit the circumstances. How about 30 weeks? Why not? 72 weeks? Be alright.

How far do we bend the standard and how far does that allow us to bend it next time (a little farther)?.

If there is a free range standard, that is that. If producers can't meet it for whatever reason then that is too bad. They didn't meet the standard. That's a shame. I've spent probably over a grand on nets and tarps this winter. That's a shame. Do I get some sort of leeway or compo? Nope. Nothing. Just a few scathing looks as a 'back yard' flock keeper. They didn't even tell me the restrictions were on. I read it on Facebook.

Will DEFRA take any notice of what date would suit my business when they lift the restriction? Nope. Will they lift it on Feb 28th just in time for free range to stay legally free range? Yep. All is well with the world.

Ok, but on March 1st there will either be no eggs on shelves or unlabelled eggs, selling them as unlabelled will mean no sell by dates, which is breaking another set of rules. So you're changing egg classifications from free range to barn(?) to comply with one set of standards thereby breaking another set of standards until such time as the correct labelling can be got in place.

Or you simply dump eggs into landfill and tell the consumer that its cage eggs or nothing. Which is A) Completely immoral and B) Would cause absolute chaos in the egg market and, given human nature, widespread fraud.

DEFRA will not take any notice of either you or I as to when they lift their restrictions, they will do it on the advice of the Government vet who will be looking at what infected birds have been found where.

 

[Pasty]

Ok, but on March 1st there will either be no eggs on shelves or unlabelled eggs, selling them as unlabelled will mean no sell by dates, which is breaking another set of rules. So you're changing egg classifications from free range to barn(?) to comply with one set of standards thereby breaking another set of standards until such time as the correct labelling can be got in place.

Or you simply dump eggs into landfill and tell the consumer that its cage eggs or nothing. Which is A) Completely immoral and B) Would cause absolute chaos in the egg market and, given human nature, widespread fraud.

DEFRA will not take any notice of either you or I as to when they lift their restrictions, they will do it on the advice of the Government vet who will be looking at what infected birds have been found where.

That's where we disagree. They won't take any notice of me or my business (not that it affects me at the moment as I am following guidance to the letter) but they will absolutely take notice of the big egg producers or their representatives and I'm sure the Government vet will have an awful lot of heat on his backside to make the 'correct decision'.

They have picked an arbitrary date of Feb 28. Let's see if they extend it so that there are no more free range eggs in the UK. It's easy to tell a million backyard keepers to keep their birds under cover without bothering to enforce. Not so easy to take the maybe top 10 producers and tell them they can't sell their produce any more.

 

[Henarar]

do you sell eggs as free range @Pasty

 

[pine_guy]

Half a million quid borrowed? Absolutely nuts. Surely when you borrow that half a million there is a contract in place for the time you will need to pay it off?

Oops.

Right, factor in half a million quid of debt on the bakruptcy shed at 3%. About 15k a year in interest alone. So less than £1 per hen. £5 to buy the hen. £1 to pay the interest on the shed. £12 in feed. Total £18. Income per bird still £22. So, £4 over 16,000 is £64k profit. Less staff of course. Less water and electric. I still don't see how they have come to a loss of £4.08 per bird without some seriously dodgy accounting. It just doesn't add up to me. Would like someone to justify it.

This story has one purpose. To pressurise DEFRA into lifting the restrictions earlier than they maybe should. They probably will as well.

Think you also missed the several grand to muck/wash/disinfect the shed between flocks. Still a fair profit by your calcs. I was offered a 16k bird free range shed to rent and use. But when I crunched the numbers their didn't seem to be that kind of profit in it based on the several flock records they gave me.

 

[bjreroberts]

1) No they are not losing money, like all farming some are making a lot, others losing their shirt and most are somewhere in the middle.
2) The issue will be, if they are forced to downgrade the eggs to barn then the market price paid will plummet. At present there is no real demand for barn eggs in the England, but there is in Scotland. Most excess barn eggs will end up being sold at caged prices. The individual contracts will determine what gets paid to the farmer and hopefully there is a floor price in their contract, then it is the packers problem.
3) Every producer in the UK is in the same situation. Who wants imported free range eggs (other than for liquid egg). Common sense would be the powers that be conveniently ignore the while thing until spring when hopefully there won't be an issue.

 

[Pasty]

So would 'common sense' trickle down to the back yard producer who should ignore it as well? I thought we are dealing with science here? Surely science is all that matters? Yet when money is on the line, it turns into 'common sense'? I don't understand. Well, I do, but it makes me want to vomit.

 

[bovine]

They didn't even tell me the restrictions were on. I read it on Facebook.

Are you on the poultry register?

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/poultry-registration

I get the emails about bird flu to work and personal email because we put ourselves on the register when we had our flock of 6 hens (and about 100 rats, hence we got rid).

 

[Kidds]

From a consumers point of view, why should I pay extra money for free range eggs over barn/cage eggs when they are obviously not free range if they have spent 1-2 months locked in a shed?

 

[Pasty]

Are you on the poultry register?

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/poultry-registration

I get the emails about bird flu to work and personal email because we put ourselves on the register when we had our flock of 6 hens (and about 100 rats, hence we got rid).

Yes, since 2014. I know of many others who didn't hear anything.

 

[Pasty]

From a consumers point of view, why should I pay extra money for free range eggs over barn/cage eggs when they are obviously not free range if they have spent 1-2 months locked in a shed?

People asking questions like that is why they will lift the restriction, regardless of the threat.

 

[wdah/him]

1) No they are not losing money, like all farming some are making a lot, others losing their shirt and most are somewhere in the middle.
2) The issue will be, if they are forced to downgrade the eggs to barn then the market price paid will plummet. At present there is no real demand for barn eggs in the England, but there is in Scotland. Most excess barn eggs will end up being sold at caged prices. The individual contracts will determine what gets paid to the farmer and hopefully there is a floor price in their contract, then it is the packers problem.
3) Every producer in the UK is in the same situation. Who wants imported free range eggs (other than for liquid egg). Common sense would be the powers that be conveniently ignore the while thing until spring when hopefully there won't be an issue.

u seem fairly clued up are u in the egg industry.

the next step down from free range as said would be barn, dont know the price difference to farmers, but also dont know of any egg producers signed up to long term contract. new house up over the road from here and heard it is on a one year contract and eggs going for cracking not retail.

barn would be a bigg enough market would it not, surely will grow in future as caged is to be phased out by many major supermarkets or maybe already has by some, when it comes down to it price will still be king for many when it comes to choosing it is a selling point for a shop to be saying it cares for the welfare of the animals of its produce. a caged hen knows no different and many free range hens wouldnt travel far from the house if they even go out

 

[pine_guy]

From a consumers point of view, why should I pay extra money for free range eggs over barn/cage eggs when they are obviously not free range if they have spent 1-2 months locked in a shed?

Because it's better than millions of birds dying from flu and millions more killed to try and stem the spread of the disease? And don't forget the possible human death toll if it jumps species.

Not saying that I think locking them in a shed will prevent this, but I think that would be the governments stance/reasoning as they need to be able to say they did something to try and prevent what is nearly I unpreventable if nature decides it is to happen.

Anyway, I'm off to read the results of my TB test. Just as controversial

 

[bjreroberts]

barn would be a bigg enough market would it not, surely will grow in future as caged is to be phased out by many major supermarkets or maybe already has by some, when it comes down to it price will still be king for many when it comes to choosing it is a selling point for a shop to be saying it cares for the welfare of the animals of its produce. a caged hen knows no different and many free range hens wouldnt travel far from the house if they even go out

I believe there is only 10p per dozen difference, so for 5p per 1/2 dozen box you might as well go free range. It will all come down to the supermarkets and what they determine. They might go all free range, like Coop, or might have barn as a slightly cheaper alternative. Who knows?

Yes I am in the egg industry, as a wholesaler. Personally I am planning to go all free range and slowly withdrawing from the caged market, not bothering to look at barn.

 

[wdah/him]

not much said of barn eggs here that i know of, seem to be more an english thing but quite a few barn houses about. very few caged houses now after the last change was enforced, enriched cage or something and a fair big expense to get there to then be told that the shops were phasing them out

 

[bjreroberts]

So would 'common sense' trickle down to the back yard producer who should ignore it as well? I thought we are dealing with science here? Surely science is all that matters? Yet when money is on the line, it turns into 'common sense'? I don't understand. Well, I do, but it makes me want to vomit.

It is primarily about animal health, if controls are put in place to prevent the spread of disease then why not allow it? The controls are there to try and prevent the culling of millions of birds, all the producers are affected equally.

What might be required is a note in every box sold to state the eggs are from a free range flock, currently housed due to the bird flu issue. As a consumer of free range eggs I would accept this in preference to imported free range eggs.

 

[Daniel]

So would 'common sense' trickle down to the back yard producer who should ignore it as well? I thought we are dealing with science here? Surely science is all that matters? Yet when money is on the line, it turns into 'common sense'? I don't understand. Well, I do, but it makes me want to vomit.

It may be that the definition of free range should allow for a housing period between September and March based on what strains of AI have been found where.

In truth if we look at it objectively a commercial flock can benefit from not going outside when it is cold and wet. Indeed no one thinks a dairy farmer cruel if he houses his cattle October to March. They think it a sensible course of action.

I realise you dislike commercial egg production, but the fact is, people have to eat, they do not all wish to keep 6 chickens in their back garden, and the retailers will not pay a penny more than they can get away with. This leads to large scale production. The key thing is that bird welfare is maintained, and when visitors come to our site and have the process explained they are always happy with it. Misinformation spreads fear.

The reason we have them shut in is because of the fear that AI could mutate and jump species to humans, no government is going to prioritise labelling concerns over that.

If the science says keep them indoors into March, and I sincerely hope it doesn't, then there should be a derogation on labelling. Then, a proper contingency plans can be established for next year and the year after etc. Whether that be insisting packers hold alternative labelling (expensive and complex) or accepting that actually, a well managed shut in while the weather is crap, isn't the end of the world, and should only happen in high threat years.

 

[Pasty]

It may be that the definition of free range should allow for a housing period between September and March based on what strains of AI have been found where.

In truth if we look at it objectively a commercial flock can benefit from not going outside when it is cold and wet. Indeed no one thinks a dairy farmer cruel if he houses his cattle October to March. They think it a sensible course of action.

I realise you dislike commercial egg production, but the fact is, people have to eat, they do not all wish to keep 6 chickens in their back garden, and the retailers will not pay a penny more than they can get away with. This leads to large scale production. The key thing is that bird welfare is maintained, and when visitors come to our site and have the process explained they are always happy with it. Misinformation spreads fear.

The reason we have them shut in is because of the fear that AI could mutate and jump species to humans, no government is going to prioritise labelling concerns over that.

If the science says keep them indoors into March, and I sincerely hope it doesn't, then there should be a derogation on labelling. Then, a proper contingency plans can be established for next year and the year after etc. Whether that be insisting packers hold alternative labelling (expensive and complex) or accepting that actually, a well managed shut in while the weather is crap, isn't the end of the world, and should only happen in high threat years.

I have very little against free range production and I agree that housing during wet weather may be a beneficial thing as long as it's done well. It would save a lot of ground from being trashed. It's one of the things which puts me off going organic, this insistence on outdoor access at all times. Farms I have visited usually look like mud baths at this time of year. I suppose it just depresses me to read articles like this which are clearly putting pressure on to lift the restriction in the name of profit only whilst having another dig at the smaller producer. That's how I read it anyway.