Grass seed

[Sam myers]

looking at re drilling some old grasses to make hay/haylage, what type of grass lay should i drill? what seed would you recommend and how much will the seed cost me for 10 acres worth? thanks in advance

 

[pgk]

looking at re drilling some old grasses to make hay/haylage, what type of grass lay should i drill? what seed would you recommend and how much will the seed cost me for 10 acres worth? thanks in advance

Oliver's are very good, I have overseeded with fortress last couple of years, includes about 20% of a festulolium based upon prg so should be more persistent than irg based ones we used previously. We usually take a single hay/haylage cut and graze rest of the year.

 

[powerontheland]

@Great In Grass

 

[YorkshireAndrew]

@Kevtherev .

 

[som farmer]

1968 seed rec 10-14 lbs/acre, 2020 rec 14kg/acre what has gone wrong, i think an explanation from the seed sellers should be forthcoming.

 

[Sharpy]

1968 seed rec 10-14 lbs/acre, 2020 rec 14kg/acre what has gone wrong, i think an explanation from the seed sellers should be forthcoming.

Could be bigger seed in part?

 

[Derrick Hughes]

1968 seed rec 10-14 lbs/acre, 2020 rec 14kg/acre what has gone wrong, i think an explanation from the seed sellers should be forthcoming.

Tertraploid seed is larger that is more common now . But I've aways put more seed on than recomended also a lot more Hybrid and Italian Ryegrass going in now that needs a higher seed rate . If you remember back then the bench mark mix for dairy paddocks was S23 with a small amount of Timothy and White clover that performed wonderfully well for the time, S23 would tiller like nothing on earth so you could get away with a low seed rate

 

[Derrick Hughes]

looking at re drilling some old grasses to make hay/haylage, what type of grass lay should i drill? what seed would you recommend and how much will the seed cost me for 10 acres worth? thanks in advance

Is it Haylage for Horses , would have to be a slight compromise as we tend to use different grasses for hay and Haylage . For hay mainly Diploids again important if for horses . I can pm you some prices and options if you want , we are very busy so must be doing something right
Price wise around £3.90 kg but would depend if and how much clover you want. If its for horses then no clover

The only other issue being if your overseeding diploids are not ideal
Festulolium overseed well but again the Fescue Type which is the longer lasting of the two would be fine for haylage but high moisture for hay

 

[som farmer]

Tertraploid seed is larger that is more common now . But I've always put more seed on than recommended also a lot more Hybrid and Italian Ryegrass going in now that needs a higher seed rate . If you remember back then the bench mark mix for dairy paddocks was S23 with a small amount of Timothy and White clover that performed wonderfully well for the time, S23 would tiller like nothing on earth so you could get away with a low seed rate

250% increase in seed weight. And as you say, many are putting more in, as we are, we are 18kg/acre, which is nearly 40 lbs acre. Seed may have increased in size, timothy and w clover probably the same, so after 60 years of ryegrass improvement, they have increased seed size, ended up with grasses that require precise management to get a good ground coverage, with farmers using a higher rate, to achieve that. We have had 3 very dry summers, and rye grass has simply died out, it couldn't cope. It's a bummer when you put in a high quality, 4/5 year ley, at 18 kg/acre, and despite good takes, 2 years later, the main grass is annual meadow grass, with a few natural grasses, soil indices are allright, very careful to get a decent seed bed, and grass is rotationally grazed.
We are in a rain shadow, with south facing slopes, so in dry times we suffer from both dry, and wind. Perhaps the fact that this summer, both forage rape, and weeds, took up to 8 weeks, to emerge in places, anything wrong with what we did, the weeds would have grown. I am beginning to think, rye grass breeding, has gone the same way as holstien breeding, finely tuned, and needing precise conditions to achieve advertised production.
This last summer, grass has come out in a vastly better condition than the previous 2, the difference in both seeding and survival, we basically fed at higher covers, and left longer residuals, stopped ploughing, and used heavy tines instead, to work the soil. For us, s23 would be an improvement on what we have now, pp would be better, as it would actually produce grass all summer.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

250% increase in seed weight. And as you say, many are putting more in, as we are, we are 18kg/acre, which is nearly 40 lbs acre. Seed may have increased in size, timothy and w clover probably the same, so after 60 years of ryegrass improvement, they have increased seed size, ended up with grasses that require precise management to get a good ground coverage, with farmers using a higher rate, to achieve that. We have had 3 very dry summers, and rye grass has simply died out, it couldn't cope. It's a bummer when you put in a high quality, 4/5 year ley, at 18 kg/acre, and despite good takes, 2 years later, the main grass is annual meadow grass, with a few natural grasses, soil indices are allright, very careful to get a decent seed bed, and grass is rotationally grazed.
We are in a rain shadow, with south facing slopes, so in dry times we suffer from both dry, and wind. Perhaps the fact that this summer, both forage rape, and weeds, took up to 8 weeks, to emerge in places, anything wrong with what we did, the weeds would have grown. I am beginning to think, rye grass breeding, has gone the same way as holstien breeding, finely tuned, and needing precise conditions to achieve advertised production.
This last summer, grass has come out in a vastly better condition than the previous 2, the difference in both seeding and survival, we basically fed at higher covers, and left longer residuals, stopped ploughing, and used heavy tines instead, to work the soil. For us, s23 would be an improvement on what we have now, pp would be better, as it would actually produce grass all summer.

A good seed merchant will sit down and discuss what's best for your situation, farmers are looking to get more production from forage. That means high index grasses High Protein High Energy High Desease resistance, but Ryegrass won't suit every situation and no grass can cope with a long summer drought. I drove through Hampshire and West Sussex in August last. Countryside was like a dessert , there are of course grasses that can cope better in such situations, but then there is usually a trade off

To be honest I can't remember what the seed rate was in the 60ts ,my dad was the seedsman then , but I know silage has improved a lot , 10 ME in those days was the benchmark . What are farmers getting now?
We can pull other companies down. There are those who say a certain company went all out to breed a grass that produced masses of energy and left behind protien and desease resistance , I don't know but I do know if you look on the recomended list there are some grasses that should not be on there with such low scores for Fungal Desease
I had a field with rust infection last year so bad no stock would eat it and its thinned the ley no end, which is a known fact with Rust Infection. Just be careful you choose Grasses with a high score for Fungus Deseases

As I said Tertraploids are larger seed, but don't tiller as well as Diploids . More erect so you will need to up seed rate and except that they are not quite so Hardy

 

[som farmer]

A good seed merchant will sit down and discuss what's best for your situation, farmers are looking to get more production from forage. That means high index grasses High Protein High Energy High Desease resistance, but Ryegrass won't suit every situation and no grass can cope with a long summer drought. I drove through Hampshire and West Sussex in August last. Countryside was like a dessert , there are of course grasses that can cope better in such situations, but then there is usually a trade off

To be honest I can't remember what the seed rate was in the 60ts ,my dad was the seedsman then , but I know silage has improved a lot , 10 ME in those days was the benchmark . What are farmers getting now?
We can pull other companies down. There are those who say a certain company went all out to breed a grass that produced masses of energy and left behind protien and desease resistance , I don't know but I do know if you look on the recomended list there are some grasses that should not be on there with such low scores for Fungal Desease
I had a field with rust infection last year so bad no stock would eat it and its thinned the ley no end, which is a known fact with Rust Infection. Just be careful you choose Grasses with a high score for Fungus Deseases

As I said Tertraploids are larger seed, but don't tiller as well as Diploids . More erect so you will need to up seed rate and except that they are not quite so Hardy

the seed rates for 60's, came from 'freams elements of ag' recognised serious text book, looking at ' legumes for grazing', 1995 edition, they were saying 10kg grass with clover.
as you say, disease is in the equation, now, as with all arable crops, however back in the 70's corn usually had 1 dose of calaxin (spelling ?), and that was that, how many now ? We were selling 4 ton wheat acre, in the late 80's, how much have yields increased since then ? As far as i can see, seed development, for both arable and grass, in the last 50/60 years, has managed to seriously increase costs, with yield improvements achieved, only with the near perfect conditions. Grass is very obviously causing problems, the increase of interest in herbs, different grass types is rising, if grass was producing as predicted, farmers wouldn't be looking at alternatives. All through the 80's, for silage grass, we used a mix of 3 italian rye grasses, and achieved 1st cuts, early/mid may, of quality silage, 10 ton/acre, with 2 more cuts to follow, that would be difficult to achieve now.
It is pretty obvious there have been some fundamental changes in seed production, what i would like to know, is if those changes have been for the farmers benefit, or have we, as farmers, been keeping a load of specialists creating new varieties in trial plots, that 'work', justifying their wages, requiring more 'imputs', that help the profits in ag suppliers, to achieve crops, that don't really, echo the claims, on anything not 'perfect'. Or, have we been conned.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

the seed rates for 60's, came from 'freams elements of ag' recognised serious text book, looking at ' legumes for grazing', 1995 edition, they were saying 10kg grass with clover.
as you say, disease is in the equation, now, as with all arable crops, however back in the 70's corn usually had 1 dose of calaxin (spelling ?), and that was that, how many now ? We were selling 4 ton wheat acre, in the late 80's, how much have yields increased since then ? As far as i can see, seed development, for both arable and grass, in the last 50/60 years, has managed to seriously increase costs, with yield improvements achieved, only with the near perfect conditions. Grass is very obviously causing problems, the increase of interest in herbs, different grass types is rising, if grass was producing as predicted, farmers wouldn't be looking at alternatives. All through the 80's, for silage grass, we used a mix of 3 italian rye grasses, and achieved 1st cuts, early/mid may, of quality silage, 10 ton/acre, with 2 more cuts to follow, that would be difficult to achieve now.
It is pretty obvious there have been some fundamental changes in seed production, what i would like to know, is if those changes have been for the farmers benefit, or have we, as farmers, been keeping a load of specialists creating new varieties in trial plots, that 'work', justifying their wages, requiring more 'imputs', that help the profits in ag suppliers, to achieve crops, that don't really, echo the claims, on anything not 'perfect'. Or, have we been conned.

Adas lost its independence and closed gave back all those farms ,that was a big blow to farming research in this Country, Farming also lost a bit of its importance
But dare I says some farmers need to take their blickers of , there is more letters in the Alphabet that an A with a large lump of Sugar [emoji23]
The first 2 months of selling for the new company i shifted over £60.000 in seed sales . A drop in the ocean to many i know but just shows that others are more open minded [emoji23]

 

[Derrick Hughes]

the seed rates for 60's, came from 'freams elements of ag' recognised serious text book, looking at ' legumes for grazing', 1995 edition, they were saying 10kg grass with clover.
as you say, disease is in the equation, now, as with all arable crops, however back in the 70's corn usually had 1 dose of calaxin (spelling ?), and that was that, how many now ? We were selling 4 ton wheat acre, in the late 80's, how much have yields increased since then ? As far as i can see, seed development, for both arable and grass, in the last 50/60 years, has managed to seriously increase costs, with yield improvements achieved, only with the near perfect conditions. Grass is very obviously causing problems, the increase of interest in herbs, different grass types is rising, if grass was producing as predicted, farmers wouldn't be looking at alternatives. All through the 80's, for silage grass, we used a mix of 3 italian rye grasses, and achieved 1st cuts, early/mid may, of quality silage, 10 ton/acre, with 2 more cuts to follow, that would be difficult to achieve now.
It is pretty obvious there have been some fundamental changes in seed production, what i would like to know, is if those changes have been for the farmers benefit, or have we, as farmers, been keeping a load of specialists creating new varieties in trial plots, that 'work', justifying their wages, requiring more 'imputs', that help the profits in ag suppliers, to achieve crops, that don't really, echo the claims, on anything not 'perfect'. Or, have we been conned.

Also you have not taken into account stocking rates . These big herds put a lot of pressure on pasture, in the 60ts a cow to the acre was a heavy stocking rate

 

[deleted user 837354]

1968 seed rec 10-14 lbs/acre, 2020 rec 14kg/acre what has gone wrong, i think an explanation from the seed sellers should be forthcoming.

Tetraploids- the seeds are massive in some varieties.

 

[deleted user 837354]

250% increase in seed weight. And as you say, many are putting more in, as we are, we are 18kg/acre, which is nearly 40 lbs acre. Seed may have increased in size, timothy and w clover probably the same, so after 60 years of ryegrass improvement, they have increased seed size, ended up with grasses that require precise management to get a good ground coverage, with farmers using a higher rate, to achieve that. We have had 3 very dry summers, and rye grass has simply died out, it couldn't cope. It's a bummer when you put in a high quality, 4/5 year ley, at 18 kg/acre, and despite good takes, 2 years later, the main grass is annual meadow grass, with a few natural grasses, soil indices are allright, very careful to get a decent seed bed, and grass is rotationally grazed.
We are in a rain shadow, with south facing slopes, so in dry times we suffer from both dry, and wind. Perhaps the fact that this summer, both forage rape, and weeds, took up to 8 weeks, to emerge in places, anything wrong with what we did, the weeds would have grown. I am beginning to think, rye grass breeding, has gone the same way as holstien breeding, finely tuned, and needing precise conditions to achieve advertised production.
This last summer, grass has come out in a vastly better condition than the previous 2, the difference in both seeding and survival, we basically fed at higher covers, and left longer residuals, stopped ploughing, and used heavy tines instead, to work the soil. For us, s23 would be an improvement on what we have now, pp would be better, as it would actually produce grass all summer.

You won't stop AMG turning up regardless of what seed rate you use. If you have a big weed grass burden, the clock is ticking from the second your new ley is drilled.

You don't need 18kg/acre if you select the right mix of varieties.

You don't by chance have a near neighbour who is forever bumping on about grass seed and persistence? There is a guy in your area I know of who was convinced he was being conned by his salesman, I spoke with him at length, he was not interested in my advice and I did not go back. I will never know for sure but from what I saw the performance of his grass was probably an issue because of a lot more than just what mixtures or varieties were used.

Modern ryegrasses give a lot more yield and quality than their forebears. It really has come on in leaps and bounds in the last 30 years.

Don't abandon the plough whatever you do unless your land is clean.

 

[deleted user 837354]

looking at re drilling some old grasses to make hay/haylage, what type of grass lay should i drill? what seed would you recommend and how much will the seed cost me for 10 acres worth? thanks in advance

Can't advise you at all without knowing what your land is like, your climate, your rainfall or even what you intend to do with the grass.

 

[Pilatus]

I was surprised at how much grass seed costs these days !!!

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Can't advise you at all without knowing what your land is like, your climate, your rainfall or even what you intend to do with the grass.

"Sorry but you have turned a simple enquiry in to a complication and we will not be doing business"

Some dont like offer of advice [emoji23]

 

[Derrick Hughes]

I was surprised at how much grass seed costs these days !!![emoji44]

A ley that would last approximately 6 years around £10 a year say around £60 which should improve your margin
The cost of 700 kg of straw !

 

[deleted user 837354]

I was surprised at how much grass seed costs these days !!!

Dearer per acre than many crops, including some varieties of maize.