Help a non farmer understand

[wanton dwarf]

Non farmer "civilian" here but I'm trying to understand what I'm hearing come out about the proposed US-UK trade deal and how its going to affect farming and farmers in the UK.

Its quite frankly scaring the sh!t out of me.

- UK market flooded with cheap meat and grain that uses processes and chemicals currently banned here.
- UK farmers likely forced drop to use similar standards to compete
- Country of origin labeling will be gone and under WTO it would allow the US to sue the UK for damages if it was used.
- We could have a technically have a "Buy British" advertising campaign but at point of sale, the consumer wont know if it really is British.
- The US are pressing for the UK to allow use of currently banned pesticides such as neonicotinoids which have been proven to decimate bee colonies and other pollinators.
- Organic food no longer truly organic as the US and UK definition is different.

Is there any silver lining here? As someone who always buys free range/organic/farmers market direct whenever I can, this sort of stuff fills me with dread.

Do you guys feel like this is all a done deal? Do you have any say in what happens? Am I right to be worried?

In the good old EU we currently have GM Soya imported that we cannot grow by the millions of tonnes .. and million of tonnes of Oilseed Rape grown using nicitinoids from the Ukraine ..

All I see is a bunch of hyprocritical morons in London screwing up everything they can as often as they can whilst blaming everyone but themselves.

It will change eventually .. the woeful response to Covid-19 such as stating masks don't work continues the UK civil service tradition of being completely and utterly moronic.

 

[TheShrike]

IMO, there is very, very unlikely to be any "silver lining" for UK agriculture... Others have summed up the reasoning here already for you, but the real crux of the matter is that Boris and his Mates care not one fig for UK Agriculture. They don't understand or care that what is done here in farming, goes beyond "simply producing" food.

I suspect that the UK population as a whole will at least pay lip service to wanting standards of Imports to be comparable to those here. Many however, will have real and justifiable concerns on UK farming being sold down the river on the alter of free trade and keeping a sector of the Tory party happy.

Farming was promised a brave new furture in 2016 by Bozzer and his Brexiteer mates. Some believed, some didn't. The UK/US deal is more of the same, promises and undertakings that will be forgotten in 12 months...

To the OP, have a look at this thread and undertstand some of the double standards we are already seeing will be imposed here in Agriculture.

https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index...tions-in-new-trade-deals.319808/#post-6982676

Eurgh...not what I wanted to hear It makes me so angry as you can guarantee that those in govt making the decisions wont be eating the cheap imports.


So, that raises more questions...

If some farmers here do start to use similar production standards to the US, does that mean no farmers at all can export to the EU? Or is on a case by case/farm by farm basis? Or is export to the EU not a particularly big deal and the UK market is more important?

What does this mean for the red tractor and rspca assurances? Will they just go away? (I gather theres not a lot of love for red tractor from what I've read).

Do you envisage a boom for farmers markets/shops/vans/whatever where people can buy direct? There will always be a premium market as long as its allowed to work and provenance can be assured and you guys can turn a profit.

 

[TheShrike]

I just want to know I will still be able to buy the good stuff even if it means buying less often!

 

[tepapa]

The country is fed by supermarkets who's number one goal is to look after their share holders. If they can reduce the price to the consumer and increase profits by buying imported American meat they will.
Shoppers buy on price and if it's on the shelf they will buy it.

UK ag won't be allowed to drop standards to complete with imports so will slowly get squeezed out of the market. Long term maybe you won't be able to buy quality British produce. There will still be some selling at farmers markets etc but the majority of consumers will just keep going to the big super markets.

 

[teslacoils]

I just want to know I will still be able to buy the good stuff even if it means buying less often!

Your choices will not change. There is no way our standards will drop, and even if they did so long as there is demand there will be sellers to match.

"The good stuff" is however highly subjective. Many, many people including Brits, are not in the position to be able to afford to make food choices. My view is that the output from all British farmers is of a sufficient level of welfare to justify being called "good". The notion of organic being in some way better is highly contentious. Ditto free range. These are personal choices. I'd take locally produced indoor poor for example over an imported organic avocado.

That's an entirely different debate. We are all or mostly all food producers here and we all cater to different end users. Farmers are a small group and it does us no good in saying one type of system is intrinsically better than another.

If your seller can't tell you where your food is produced, then you need a new seller. Your local farmers market or direct from the farm is, where possible, the best way to support your local farmers who are mostly small, family businesses. Keep up the good work.

 

[wanton dwarf]

Your choices will not change. There is no way our standards will drop, and even if they did so long as there is demand there will be sellers to match.

Eh ?

If we in the UK cannot grow Oilseed Rape because nicitinoids cannot be used .. that means goods produced using Oilseed Rape now are done so to Ukrainian standards where nicitinoids can be used.

Therefore your statement is meaningless.

It would be nice if the morons in London actually lived by the standards they avow to .. but they don't .. quite the opposite in fact.

 

[kill]

Actually I was quite tempted by Svetlana, 24

I hope it wasn’t because she had certain looks like Nicola Sturgeon ??

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

There's no silver lining unless, as already pointed out, you are a supermarket. Food is cheap until it leaves the farm (eg 8p worth of wheat for a loaf of bread). That will continue: only they'll be buying cheaper from the US and passing a small percentage of the savings on to their customers.

I reckon the real pain to be felt will be in the supply industry who rely of UK Ag to keep them in business. There's alot of them when you think about it and they won't be too pleased if it all ends up rewilded.

 

[Bald Rick]

There's no silver lining unless, as already pointed out, you are a supermarket. Food is cheap until it leaves the farm (eg 8p worth of wheat for a loaf of bread). That will continue: only they'll be buying cheaper from the US and passing a small percentage of the savings on to their customers.

I reckon the real pain to be felt will be in the supply industry who rely of UK Ag to keep them in business. There's alot of them when you think about it and they won't be too pleased if it all ends up rewilded.

Iirc someone did a back of the envelope calculation about how many people his dairy farm (& it wasn’t a big one) supported directly. Figure was around 1200. Throw in the indirects such as shelf stackers and it would be manyntimes that

 

[Bald Rick]

I hope it wasn’t because she had certain looks like Nicola Sturgeon ??

Turns out she exists ... both Svetlana 24 (and Ms Sturgeon)

 

[Danllan]

Ha, not a journo (but I do work for a paper...

I'm just a concerned consumer. I've been lurking here since the brexit ref to try and understand the sentiment. My tweet feed is currently full of "leaks" from the trade talks which are worrying me about what I'll be feeding me and my family...

I'm hoping there will still be a market for higher standard food, but the labeling element of the talks seems to make that really difficult.

......And are farmers generally unwilling to talk to journalists???

See below...

Eurgh...not what I wanted to hear It makes me so angry as you can guarantee that those in govt making the decisions wont be eating the cheap imports.


So, that raises more questions...

If some farmers here do start to use similar production standards to the US, does that mean no farmers at all can export to the EU? Or is on a case by case/farm by farm basis? Or is export to the EU not a particularly big deal and the UK market is more important?

What does this mean for the red tractor and rspca assurances? Will they just go away? (I gather theres not a lot of love for red tractor from what I've read).

Do you envisage a boom for farmers markets/shops/vans/whatever where people can buy direct? There will always be a premium market as long as its allowed to work and provenance can be assured and you guys can turn a profit.

Taking you at face value...

I was and still am pro-Brexit, for reasons of legal and democratic / constitutional principle. That aside I don't think there is anything to be afraid of in the UK joining the world market in its own right, neither for industry in general nor agriculture in particular. EU standards are / were blatantly hypocritical, there is already a hell of a lot of stuff on the supermarkets' shelves that is of GM origin etc..

As to your emboldened question, and the others following, nobody knows, nor will they until a 'deal' - if there is one - is done. But my guess, having a professional eye on other such agreements (as a current farmer and former lawyer), is that it will be on a 'standards' basis, i.e. anyone form either party to a deal may sell to the other provided it reaches the buyer's standards.

Lot's of people sell to the EU, and beyond. I farm beef and lamb; my market for beef is entirely domestic and always has been, the lamb sales were mixed but now - due to a change in operating style, not linked to Brexit, but a dislike for the dreaded 'Red Tractor' - are also entirely domestic, though a proportion will most probably still go to the EU and further afield. We are also looking into direct sales to the Far East, Japan and Korea, which may sound odd, but if it pays, it pays...

You are probably financially secure and 'comfortable', that isn't a dig at you because I am too, it's just a rational presumption based on what you have told us. So, for you, and others in a similar position, and me where necessary, yes I think farm shops will increase in popularity and that there will be more 'exclusive' shelves in the supermarkets.

But most will eat as they do now, and with the added option of some US produce. That's fine by me, it's what the free market is about, and I'll certainly be looking to find niches for my native breeds of British cattle and Welsh lamb in the US, we already have a couple of leads and a few ideas in that regard.

As for Red Tractor, it began as an alright idea in theory, it is now utter b*llocks. All it does is give you a sticker for doing what you are legally obliged to do anyway. It really is that daft, and a fair number of people make a living off of it. But, if you take a moment to reflect, it is implicit - sometimes explicit - that all produce offered into the human food chain in this country must have been raised / grown etc. to the required standards.

Regardless of what it would have you believe, buying Red Tractor offers you not one iota of higher standards to which your food must have been produced. What it does do, by clear implication, is tell you that farmers aren't honest enough to be trusted.

 

[delilah]

The US trade deal is neither here not there. If you want to do the right thing by farmers, the environment and your family, then the advice is the same as it was before this all kicked off. Don't shop at supermarkets.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

The US trade deal is neither here not there. If you want to do the right thing by farmers, the environment and your family, then the advice is the same as it was before this all kicked off. Don't shop at supermarkets.

Where then .no farm shops around here . Nearest decent one is 40 miles away , small shops long got . Give you a quid if you could find so much as a carrot in our nearest town
I do buy eggs from the local poultry farm and a bit of veg from another local farm ,but that's it

 

[br jones]

Where then .no farm shops around here . Nearest decent one is 40 miles away , small shops long got . Give you a quid if you could find so much as a carrot in our nearest town
I do buy eggs from the local poultry farm and a bit of veg from another local farm ,but that's it

But you do live in the arseend of nowhere ,there is nothing there for 6 months of the year ,plenty of farmers down that way

 

[delilah]

Where then .no farm shops around here . Nearest decent one is 40 miles away , small shops long got . Give you a quid if you could find so much as a carrot in our nearest town
I do buy eggs from the local poultry farm and a bit of veg from another local farm ,but that's it

Yes, and no.
The advice was at a micro level, ie to a concerned individual. Anyone who is concerned enough can do all of their weekly food shop without using supermarkets. What's your postcode, I will sort you out.

However, at a macro level, ie the UK, then yes structural change is needed. The concentration of market share can be drastically reversed without 'Joe Public' having to change their habits. Hopefully, once all this US trade distraction is out of the way, we can move on and address the real issues.
https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/tescorona.313517/

 

[Cab-over Pete]

Actually I was quite tempted by Svetlana, 24

It meant 24 stone, you did realise that?

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Yes, and no.
The advice was at a micro level, ie to a concerned individual. Anyone who is concerned enough can do all of their weekly food shop without using supermarkets. What's your postcode, I will sort you out.

However, at a macro level, ie the UK, then yes structural change is needed. The concentration of market share can be drastically reversed without 'Joe Public' having to change their habits. Hopefully, once all this US trade distraction is out of the way, we can move on and address the real issues.
https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/tescorona.313517/

I shop for 3 families who are isolating, I pity you if you had to shop for them , they do send me pictures if I'm stuck,
Sorry but I'm a motorway drive and a Tesco Shopper

 

[delilah]

I shop for 3 families who are isolating, I pity you if you had to shop for them , they do send me pictures if I'm stuck,
Sorry but I'm a motorway drive and a Tesco Shopper

You moaned that there was no way of feeding yourself without using supermarkets, and that you would "give me a quid" if I could find you a carrot.
I offer to help you out.
You say "nah, don't bother, i'm a Tesco man me".

Just about sums the job up. As I have pointed out on here many a time, the worst sector of society in supporting UK agriculture, is UK agriculture.

 

[kill]

Turns out she exists ... both Svetlana 24 (and Ms Sturgeon)

OMG she’s some flexible. Just think of the possible positions she could get in??

 

[Derrick Hughes]

You moaned that there was no way of feeding yourself without using supermarkets, and that you would "give me a quid" if I could find you a carrot.
I offer to help you out.
You say "nah, don't bother, i'm a Tesco man me".

Just about sums the job up. As I have pointed out on here many a time, the worst sector of society in supporting UK agriculture, is UK agriculture.

You have to be realistic. If you think you will stop the vast majority if the public shopping in Superstores, well I think you are wrong,