Herbal Ley survival?

[steveR]

I was walking one of my "herbal leys" yesterday, and it looks as if the herb constituent has given up the ghost, bar a bit of white clover. The wet winter with the heavy clay lying wet for weeks on end is not conducive to the ley's survival I find. The easier land has seen a better success long term I will admit but see below...

The thing about these mixtures that annoys me after 4 years, is how poor the grasses that are included actually are! They are so threadbare, even on the leys that have managed to keep going, and that has been the case from the moment the mix emerged.

I might look at replacing a 5ha block, but what with...?

My Welsh mate put in his "herbal ley" using med term grasses and added some clover, plantain and chicory. This way, after 18-24 months, he still has decent grazing, but on establishment, it hits the mark for the grant....

I have found that using them for mowing seems to work with some light grazing with sheep either side. Cattle did not work, but again, the heavy land was an issue.

 

[livestock 1]

I was walking one of my "herbal leys" yesterday, and it looks as if the herb constituent has given up the ghost, bar a bit of white clover. The wet winter with the heavy clay lying wet for weeks on end is not conducive to the ley's survival I find. The easier land has seen a better success long term I will admit but see below...

The thing about these mixtures that annoys me after 4 years, is how poor the grasses that are included actually are! They are so threadbare, even on the leys that have managed to keep going, and that has been the case from the moment the mix emerged.

I might look at replacing a 5ha block, but what with...?

My Welsh mate put in his "herbal ley" using med term grasses and added some clover, plantain and chicory. This way, after 18-24 months, he still has decent grazing, but on establishment, it hits the mark for the grant....

I have found that using them for mowing seems to work with some light grazing with sheep either side. Cattle did not work, but again, the heavy land was an issue.

I have said this from the start of sfi. I’m on cold wet hill land and I associate these herbal leys with warmer dryer soil

 

[Derrick Hughes]

What grasses are you using
We call our herbal leys production mixes , its also a bit early to access as your herbs may still be sleeping

 

[Derrick Hughes]

I have said this from the start of sfi. I’m on cold wet hill land and I associate these herbal leys with warmer dryer soil

The herbs do prefer warmer drier soils , depends how wet your land is though . Although everyone is wet atm

 

[HarryB97]

The key is not to overgraze them and find the species that work best on your farm. If the establishment is not really good then you are on a back foot from day one. I have some in there 4th year now and will be ripped up this autumn despite looking very good still. These have been mowed 1-2 times a year and rotationally grazed with ewes and lambs, it was set stocked in the drought year of 2022. Don’t have to much of an elaborate mix, mine is based on a red clover cutting ley with chicory and 3-4 herbs added.

 

[som farmer]

grazed a new h ley off with sheep in jan, chicory has come back well, plantain ok.

except on each really 'wet' patches, over the drains, grass is a darker green, and chicory's gone.
you can see the 'run' of each drain, they are taking the water, just not quick enough.

other ground that been wet all winter, herbs look sick, elsewhere fine.

l think rotational grazing, is the answer for them, to make them last.

 

[nails]

I was walking one of my "herbal leys" yesterday, and it looks as if the herb constituent has given up the ghost, bar a bit of white clover. The wet winter with the heavy clay lying wet for weeks on end is not conducive to the ley's survival I find. The easier land has seen a better success long term I will admit but see below...

The thing about these mixtures that annoys me after 4 years, is how poor the grasses that are included actually are! They are so threadbare, even on the leys that have managed to keep going, and that has been the case from the moment the mix emerged.

I might look at replacing a 5ha block, but what with...?

My Welsh mate put in his "herbal ley" using med term grasses and added some clover, plantain and chicory. This way, after 18-24 months, he still has decent grazing, but on establishment, it hits the mark for the grant....

I have found that using them for mowing seems to work with some light grazing with sheep either side. Cattle did not work, but again, the heavy land was an issue.

Heavy clay is the most difficult land to farm. A lot of "alternative" crops will not survive a wet spell like we are enduring. Just grow what grows best on heavy clay, DOCKS.

 

[delilah]

In any other context - Spanish bluebells, Coypu, American crayfish, Rhododendron, 101 other examples - introducing an invasive species is frowned upon as upsetting the natural balance.

A farm I drive past daily has sprayed off plots in PP, that has been in perfect equilibrium for Lord knows how long, to drill these leys, to claim the grant. If it's public good, then i'm a banana.

 

[Welgerbaler]

drilling 10ha of herbal ley here this spring on heavy cold clay if it ever dries up, mixture is shown below, aiming on cutting it only to produce good quality silage/haylage for cattle feed, how much fertiliser if any are people applying to get the best out of it without smothering clover out??

 

[Welgerbaler]

Herbal ley mix

 

[som farmer]

In any other context - Spanish bluebells, Coypu, American crayfish, Rhododendron, 101 other examples - introducing an invasive species is frowned upon as upsetting the natural balance.

A farm I drive past daily has sprayed off plots in PP, that has been in perfect equilibrium for Lord knows how long, to drill these leys, to claim the grant. If it's public good, then i'm a banana.

l don't think common sense is applicable to this new scheme, its nothing but a sop, so they can pretend they are 'solving' the problem.

fully admit its stupid, but one can earn a lot of money, out of their stupid intentions, and we are happy to cash in.

But, its not bad for farmers at all. Its going to reduce production, a lot of poorer arable land, is better off, money wise, than a shite crop of corn.

reducing production, to rely more on imports, in this increasingly unstable world, is utter madness, and the effect, will lead to food inflation, on a scale politicians cannot see.

simple economics, supply v demand, we are seeing it now, in the sheep and cattle prices, top hogg price this week £240 , store cattle get dearer by the week.

they wouldn't be those prices, if supply was plentiful, would they ?

and, lets face it, we are the bottom rung of the ladder, when it comes to prices, that might well alter , and about time to.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

drilling 10ha of herbal ley here this spring on heavy cold clay if it ever dries up, mixture is shown below, aiming on cutting it only to produce good quality silage/haylage for cattle feed, how much fertiliser if any are people applying to get the best out of it without smothering clover out??

I would still include some Chicory. even though you say its cold and wet SOIL, Chicory will be the main Herb apart from Plantain for Production
You need a minimum of 5 kg H Red and White in a Herbal Cutting ley to get the Protien and Supply enough Nitrogen
We are getting over 18% protien here on Herbal leys with a lot of Chicory and Red Clover that's with 7. 5 Kg H Clover , main thing with Clover is put very little N if any in the seedbed and give it time to root and establish before cutting , same with Herbs

 

[som farmer]

prg and w clover, which make up the basis of most modern leys, both of which are relatively shallow rooted, N applications feed above ground growth, rather than root growth.

as soon as you change to a h ley, you are changing to deep rooted plants, a fundamental difference, you are gaining minerals, and fertility, that wasn't available to use, with prg/clover.

management for both, is very different, one responds to N, and the other doesn't, or to a much lower extent. N on a h/ley will encourage the grass element, which tends to shade out the herb/clover to an extent, similar applications to prg leys, will kill off herbs.

then there are the claims that a herbal ley, requires no extra N, it produces enough of its own. That's a very big claim. To achieve that, your soil microbiology etc, has to be correct, for the legume element to do that. A lot of grass land, is not at that stage, so cannot produce enough N to do that. A light application early, could be helpful.

to manage a h/ley, with the same methods as a prg/clover one, will not work, your herbs won't survive. Its a different mind set requirement. But, there is no restriction of fert, in the 'rules' for a herbal ley its what happens, if your herbal ley, is 'inspected', then its 'what constitutes a herbal ley'. And that could open a large can of worms.

 

[ringi]

grazed a new h ley off with sheep in jan, chicory has come back well, plantain ok.

except on each really 'wet' patches, over the drains, grass is a darker green, and chicory's gone.
you can see the 'run' of each drain, they are taking the water, just not quick enough.

other ground that been wet all winter, herbs look sick, elsewhere fine.

l think rotational grazing, is the answer for them, to make them last.

Is there so much stone over the drains that deep rooting plants can't cope?

 

[Derrick Hughes]

prg and w clover, which make up the basis of most modern leys, both of which are relatively shallow rooted, N applications feed above ground growth, rather than root growth.

as soon as you change to a h ley, you are changing to deep rooted plants, a fundamental difference, you are gaining minerals, and fertility, that wasn't available to use, with prg/clover.

management for both, is very different, one responds to N, and the other doesn't, or to a much lower extent. N on a h/ley will encourage the grass element, which tends to shade out the herb/clover to an extent, similar applications to prg leys, will kill off herbs.

then there are the claims that a herbal ley, requires no extra N, it produces enough of its own. That's a very big claim. To achieve that, your soil microbiology etc, has to be correct, for the legume element to do that. A lot of grass land, is not at that stage, so cannot produce enough N to do that. A light application early, could be helpful.

to manage a h/ley, with the same methods as a prg/clover one, will not work, your herbs won't survive. Its a different mind set requirement. But, there is no restriction of fert, in the 'rules' for a herbal ley its what happens, if your herbal ley, is 'inspected', then its 'what constitutes a herbal ley'. And that could open a large can of worms.

I believe it stays in the advice they should not contain more that 70 % Ryegrass and Festulolims , Festulolims are deeper rooting in their nature and if you use some Tertaploids and Hybryds they are more open , a lot use meadow grass , that is one of the worst grasses for smothering aout the bottom

 

[som farmer]

Is there so much stone over the drains that deep rooting plants can't cope?

quantity of water running through the drains, warming the ground, grass growing faster than herbs.

looking across the valley, large arable field, you can see all the main drains, and the lateral ones off them, never noticed that before.

all our drains and ditches are running a lot of water, its the wettest winter l can remember, no doubt we will be very dry in july/august, sods law.

 

[steveR]

What grasses are you using
We call our herbal leys production mixes , its also a bit early to access as your herbs may still be sleeping

Methinks drowned..... not sleeping!!

 

[steveR]

prg and w clover, which make up the basis of most modern leys, both of which are relatively shallow rooted, N applications feed above ground growth, rather than root growth.

as soon as you change to a h ley, you are changing to deep rooted plants, a fundamental difference, you are gaining minerals, and fertility, that wasn't available to use, with prg/clover.

management for both, is very different, one responds to N, and the other doesn't, or to a much lower extent. N on a h/ley will encourage the grass element, which tends to shade out the herb/clover to an extent, similar applications to prg leys, will kill off herbs.

then there are the claims that a herbal ley, requires no extra N, it produces enough of its own. That's a very big claim. To achieve that, your soil microbiology etc, has to be correct, for the legume element to do that. A lot of grass land, is not at that stage, so cannot produce enough N to do that. A light application early, could be helpful.

to manage a h/ley, with the same methods as a prg/clover one, will not work, your herbs won't survive. Its a different mind set requirement. But, there is no restriction of fert, in the 'rules' for a herbal ley its what happens, if your herbal ley, is 'inspected', then its 'what constitutes a herbal ley'. And that could open a large can of worms.

Thanks.

I have found a tickle of N has been beneficial for early growth, whic can come from FYM applied over winter, but also bagged. The legumes take so long to get moving... But when the grass amounts to FA, it is a quandry

 

[steveR]

grazed a new h ley off with sheep in jan, chicory has come back well, plantain ok.

except on each really 'wet' patches, over the drains, grass is a darker green, and chicory's gone.
you can see the 'run' of each drain, they are taking the water, just not quick enough.

other ground that been wet all winter, herbs look sick, elsewhere fine.

l think rotational grazing, is the answer for them, to make them last.

Agreed, but for me, the idea of mob grazing is OTT. I appreciate it works, after a fashion and I did have a go, but the workload was a tough ask! Know of someone who grazes 4-5 day blocks and been OK, but the HL still had a limited life.

 

[steveR]

The key is not to overgraze them and find the species that work best on your farm. If the establishment is not really good then you are on a back foot from day one. I have some in there 4th year now and will be ripped up this autumn despite looking very good still. These have been mowed 1-2 times a year and rotationally grazed with ewes and lambs, it was set stocked in the drought year of 2022. Don’t have to much of an elaborate mix, mine is based on a red clover cutting ley with chicory and 3-4 herbs added.

Might go for a graze/cut ley withWC/ RC and some chicory next Autumn.