Hereford's

[exmoor dave]

@exmoor dave could you keep just Hereford cows but use an Angus just as a terminal sire on your poorest cows whilst breeding pure Hereford replacements from the best cows?

We have started criss crossing between Hereford and Angus but it's early days yet. Our first bunch of Black Baldy heifers going to the bull this summer. Must say they look like a cracking bunch of heifers but time will tell...

Heifers go to angus just really for the easier calving.
Going to need to put every one to hereford this year though to help push numbers back up after being decimated by TB. .........again

If we end up where I want us to be, weaning the calves mid winter rather than leaving them out with mums til late March, then angus would be a goer, it's the 2nd half of the winter when the angus seem to fall off, grass has disappeared I spose.

Very tempted by the black baldy idea though.

 

[JP1]

SD do seem very docile so it will likely help a lot.

I don't doubt that some Belties are quiet enough, but like their non belted cousins the general trend seems to be that they can be pretty lethal.

Flighty not aggressive the ones I bought in. All the home bred cows I tag their calves in the field and they are quietening down in terms of catching them up for blood tests etc

 

[M-J-G]

Milk is a difficult thing to define in a beef animal. Since you can't measure it, the calf's growth is the only way to define it but too much milk in a challenging environment means either higher feed requirement or a thinner cow, with less ability to survive in winter and produce another calf the next year. I correspond with Hereford people in other countries and it does give a different perspective. Also you can't measure butterfat in a beef animal and the Hereford's milk is supposed to be richer, so it's not all about quantity. Also the calf that gets less milk must make up for it by eating grass, and many of these poorer young calves will be indistinguishable from their contemporaries by the following summer. It's just that we are in such a hurry to finish cattle in this country. Milk production does vary in different Hereford families but we have been fortunate with ours. Milk production seems to improve with subsequent lactations but the first photo is a heifer's calf.View attachment 513500 View attachment 513502 View attachment 513504 Photos of calves at 5 - 7 months.

Looking good, the middle pic is a nice calf.

Better milking cows are generally pretty easy to identify, their calves literally shine.

As for butter fat, that's usually the case in poorer milking animals.
Cows that have less volume of milk will tend to have higher components.

 

[Woolless]

Heifers go to angus just really for the easier calving.
Going to need to put every one to hereford this year though to help push numbers back up after being decimated by TB. .........again

If we end up where I want us to be, weaning the calves mid winter rather than leaving them out with mums til late March, then angus would be a goer, it's the 2nd half of the winter when the angus seem to fall off, grass has disappeared I spose.

Very tempted by the black baldy idea though.

Now that I'm in beef (3 bucket calves for the bairns ) I've been mulling over some beef related ideas and re-reading some old topics on here.

@exmoor dave your outwintering system on the moor sounds really interesting and something that could be replicated here on cliff or hill ground. I like the Hereford angle as well. Have I got it right that they'll be spring calving with calves out on the moor with their mothers until early spring, so effectively what milk they get is their protein top up? Interested to hear any more about your system.

Also been looking into the practicalities of calving at 24 months. An interesting factsheet from Teagasc gives a stat that 39% of heifers calving at about 24 months will reach their fifth calving in the herd but only 0-4% of those calved at 31 months or older will! They talk about feeding 1-3kg of cake per day over the winter alongside silage to hit 60% of mature weight at 15 months for bulling, which doesn't sound too bad, given the upside. One thing that niggles me about lower input systems is having heifers running dry until they're three! @NZDan posted an interesting article about this topic a few weeks back.

My guess is that beef production will go in two different directions: beef x dairy for more intensive production, giving the supermarkets a more consistent product and suckler genetics becoming more native breed based as they are pushed on to marginal land. So smaller carcasses, better eating quality (arguably, if course!) and more grass/fodder based to combat climate change concerns.

 

[Sharpy]

Get some Galloways @exmoor dave
The one's we see in cutcombe are the most docile creature you'll ever meet!.

Dad used to work on the Fortesque estate years back they had all Galloways on the Moor, you had to ride a horse to get near them at calving, you did not get off unless you were carrying a gun.
He did say very rare to have a problem..

We had a belty like that. If she couldn't smear you over the wall she would try to bite you over the gate. Calmed down a couple of weeks after calving.

 

[exmoor dave]

Now that I'm in beef (3 bucket calves for the bairns ) I've been mulling over some beef related ideas and re-reading some old topics on here.

@exmoor dave your outwintering system on the moor sounds really interesting and something that could be replicated here on cliff or hill ground. I like the Hereford angle as well. Have I got it right that they'll be spring calving with calves out on the moor with their mothers until early spring, so effectively what milk they get is their protein top up? Interested to hear any more about your system.

Also been looking into the practicalities of calving at 24 months. An interesting factsheet from Teagasc gives a stat that 39% of heifers calving at about 24 months will reach their fifth calving in the herd but only 0-4% of those calved at 31 months or older will! They talk about feeding 1-3kg of cake per day over the winter alongside silage to hit 60% of mature weight at 15 months for bulling, which doesn't sound too bad, given the upside. One thing that niggles me about lower input systems is having heifers running dry until they're three! @NZDan posted an interesting article about this topic a few weeks back.

My guess is that beef production will go in two different directions: beef x dairy for more intensive production, giving the supermarkets a more consistent product and suckler genetics becoming more native breed based as they are pushed on to marginal land. So smaller carcasses, better eating quality (arguably, if course!) and more grass/fodder based to combat climate change concerns.

Yep calving may and june, outside but not on the moor as its winter grazing only.
calves go out on the moor with the cows in the winter (nov-march).
It's very important that calves go out on the moor with their mums and that any heifers go out as dry 18m olds (18m old in nov) and in calf 30m (nov), this is because the 2 winters on the moor as calves and yearlings (heifers) allow them to get exposure to Redwater when the infection is unlikely to cause damage and will provide them with immunity, where as if heifers were put on the moor for the first time while preggers or even missed the winter as yearlings, redwater would be devastating.
Also those two winters allow the stock to learn from their mothers and older animals the way about the moor- water, appropriate shelter for given weather etc.

For the reasons above i don't think calving at 2yrs is going to work on this system- the drawback of winter grazing is reduced growth rates.
We don't feed anything on the moor unless there's snow on the ground, if prolonged feeded was needed, the cattle come in early, we have a stash of bales for them and a old shed with in a set of fenced in ruins to house or if dry, just run in the fields.
We have to feed anyway from coming off the moor in march, usually til late april even early may as the hill fields overlook the sea so temperatures are pegged back by the sea being a cold store at that time of year.

I'm not bothered about running heifers to calf at 3 because you are wintering cheaply and they just won't be mature enough at 2yrs old,
Calving at 2.5yrs also won't work because they will calf at the wrong time of year, we don't put calves under 4mths in nov out on the hill as the cows mothering instinct is too strong for a very member of public used moor!

I can't believe those % figures on the cows, I'd be surprised if hardly any cow calved at 3yrs old didn't stay in the herd til 8-12yrs old, (leaving TB out of the equation as you do lose a high % of reactors as 1st and 2nd time calvers, prehaps thats the reason for the % figures?)

 

[NZDan]

Now that I'm in beef (3 bucket calves for the bairns ) I've been mulling over some beef related ideas and re-reading some old topics on here.

@exmoor dave your outwintering system on the moor sounds really interesting and something that could be replicated here on cliff or hill ground. I like the Hereford angle as well. Have I got it right that they'll be spring calving with calves out on the moor with their mothers until early spring, so effectively what milk they get is their protein top up? Interested to hear any more about your system.

Also been looking into the practicalities of calving at 24 months. An interesting factsheet from Teagasc gives a stat that 39% of heifers calving at about 24 months will reach their fifth calving in the herd but only 0-4% of those calved at 31 months or older will! They talk about feeding 1-3kg of cake per day over the winter alongside silage to hit 60% of mature weight at 15 months for bulling, which doesn't sound too bad, given the upside. One thing that niggles me about lower input systems is having heifers running dry until they're three! @NZDan posted an interesting article about this topic a few weeks back.

My guess is that beef production will go in two different directions: beef x dairy for more intensive production, giving the supermarkets a more consistent product and suckler genetics becoming more native breed based as they are pushed on to marginal land. So smaller carcasses, better eating quality (arguably, if course!) and more grass/fodder based to combat climate change concerns.

I have heard it said that if you cant calve your heifers at 24 months you've the wrong type of cattle on your farm.

 

[Woolless]

Yep calving may and june, outside but not on the moor as its winter grazing only.
calves go out on the moor with the cows in the winter (nov-march).
It's very important that calves go out on the moor with their mums and that any heifers go out as dry 18m olds (18m old in nov) and in calf 30m (nov), this is because the 2 winters on the moor as calves and yearlings (heifers) allow them to get exposure to Redwater when the infection is unlikely to cause damage and will provide them with immunity, where as if heifers were put on the moor for the first time while preggers or even missed the winter as yearlings, redwater would be devastating.
Also those two winters allow the stock to learn from their mothers and older animals the way about the moor- water, appropriate shelter for given weather etc.

For the reasons above i don't think calving at 2yrs is going to work on this system- the drawback of winter grazing is reduced growth rates.
We don't feed anything on the moor unless there's snow on the ground, if prolonged feeded was needed, the cattle come in early, we have a stash of bales for them and a old shed with in a set of fenced in ruins to house or if dry, just run in the fields.
We have to feed anyway from coming off the moor in march, usually til late april even early may as the hill fields overlook the sea so temperatures are pegged back by the sea being a cold store at that time of year.

I'm not bothered about running heifers to calf at 3 because you are wintering cheaply and they just won't be mature enough at 2yrs old,
Calving at 2.5yrs also won't work because they will calf at the wrong time of year, we don't put calves under 4mths in nov out on the hill as the cows mothering instinct is too strong for a very member of public used moor!

I can't believe those % figures on the cows, I'd be surprised if hardly any cow calved at 3yrs old didn't stay in the herd til 8-12yrs old, (leaving TB out of the equation as you do lose a high % of reactors as 1st and 2nd time calvers, prehaps thats the reason for the % figures?)

Thanks for that, very interesting. Your system is very similar to that proposed by Julius Ruchels in the book 'Grass fed cattle.' I can see how the redwater threat dictates what you can and can't do.

How well do they calve at three? I was just wondering if having less give in the pelvis at that age would negate the advantage of them being bigger? I was very surprised at the stat about longevity of heifers calved younger but even if the figures have been slightly skewed for some reason, there must be a clear difference. Link to the article below:

https://www.teagasc.ie/media/website/publications/2018/calving-beef-heifers-at-24-months-of-age.pdf

 

[Old Tip]

I have heard it said that if you cant calve your heifers at 24 months you've the wrong type of cattle on your farm.

rubbish, it all depends on the feeding, we calve at 2 1/2 to 3 but like @exmoor dave the cattle live on the hill and so costs are low and any heifers kept for breeding get nothing but grass on free grazing. So apart from an extra fluke dose and the interest on the money invested in them they live for free. If I wanted to calve at two they would need housing, concentrates, haylage and better grazing. The costs would be far to high to make it worth while, I also agree with dave re longevity in that most of my cows will be productive well into there teens

 

[exmoor dave]

I have heard it said that if you cant calve your heifers at 24 months you've the wrong type of cattle on your farm.

I wouldn't say we "couldn't".... have had enough accidental 2yr old heifer calvings over the years
But the heifers would need to be pushed on significantly, they wouldn't be able to go out on the moor with their first calf as both heifer and calf would need better feeding in shed/field's.
They'd miss one full winter as dry yearlings to get exposure to redwater (they'd still go out on the moor as pregnant 18mth olds, but the danger of abortion/death would be much higher), plus if they were to have to miss a complete winter to have to be feed better with their first calf, redwater immunity would wane.

We're also a summer burn out farm so getting the growth on the heifers to calf at 2yrs old is going to be extremely hard (expensive), as the fat cattle and lambs have to prioritised on the best grazing.

Thanks for that, very interesting. Your system is very similar to that proposed by Julius Ruchels in the book 'Grass fed cattle.' I can see how the redwater threat dictates what you can and can't do.

How well do they calve at three? I was just wondering if having less give in the pelvis at that age would negate the advantage of them being bigger? I was very surprised at the stat about longevity of heifers calved younger but even if the figures have been slightly skewed for some reason, there must be a clear difference. Link to the article below:

https://www.teagasc.ie/media/website/publications/2018/calving-beef-heifers-at-24-months-of-age.pdf

No problem calving at 3, realistically they are no bigger than what someone else might be calving at 2.5yrs old.
And they are fit, having spent a winter roaming the moor and cliffs, even once they are off the moor and on ring feeders, they still have a fair area to roam.