Highlanders

[neilo]

But we all know when you try a different breed Neil, you go out of your way to buy the worst examples possible
Whether it's Lleyn, Charmoise, Exlana or Beltex, you can't seem to get them to do what others can

Not saying any of those is perfect, but the questioner ought to just hear out a few others' experiences for a balanced view

That's not fair!
The Beltexes were cracking little sheep, just a struggle to see a profit from them on a grass based system when everyone seemingly wants them stuffed.

 

[Wbarker96]

Woolshedding certainly not a deal breaker but I see it being very handy in a low input system. I'm open to any suggestions with lambing ease and maternal ability being key better conformation from the likes of an easydam over an exlana would probably be of benefit onto shetland ewes.

 

[Northern territory]

That's not fair!
The Beltexes were cracking little sheep, just a struggle to see a profit from them on a grass based system when everyone seemingly wants them stuffed.

Why are you going down the shedding route apart from the obvious shearing cost?

 

[neilo]

Why are you going down the shedding route apart from the obvious shearing cost?

Shearing cost & hassle, the work of crutching them all annually and the ever increasing cost of blowfly prevention.

There is no reason at all that any sort of sheep can't be bred to shed, even conventionally 'normal' sheep. They don't necessarily have to be narrow, pointy shouldered, arseless ones but, as ever, there is a compromise to be made with lambing assistance at some point.

 

[Northern territory]

Shearing cost & hassle, the work of crutching them all annually and the ever increasing cost of blowfly prevention.

There is no reason at all that any sort of sheep can't be bred to shed, even conventionally 'normal' sheep. They don't necessarily have to be narrow, pointy shouldered, arseless ones but, as ever, there is a compromise to be made with lambing assistance at some point.

Yes all things to consider, what is going to be your ram of choice to do the job

 

[neilo]

Yes all things to consider, what is going to be your ram of choice to do the job

Homebred mongrels at this point, the same as the shedding 'breeds' available are all mongrels of various descriptions.

 

[unlacedgecko]

Woolshedding certainly not a deal breaker but I see it being very handy in a low input system. I'm open to any suggestions with lambing ease and maternal ability being key better conformation from the likes of an easydam over an exlana would probably be of benefit onto shetland ewes.

Shetlands will shed clean in 2 crosses

 

[Global ovine]

We currently run Mule and Mule cross Texel ewes. Lambing indoors. Producing replacement from the Mule flock all
Lambs finished off grass. These Mules are now coming to the end of their productive life and I’m looking to replace them. I’ve read some positive things about the Highlander with a view to the future and keeping a closed flock and breeding replacements from these. I realise they are probably better suited to outdoor lambing. We have a bit of a problem with Red Kites and Corvids so my father has in the past been reluctant to lambing outdoors due to the carnage they could cause. I know I’m opening a can of worms here but interested to hear your thoughts. Also if anyone is likely to have Highlander tupping ewe lambs available this autumn I’d be very interested. Thanks

I too would recommend crossing your Texel Mules with a ram of your chosen breed, and if it proves successful keep going. Why buy somebody else's cast offs with disease risk.

Please keep in mind that some traits are very hard to gain because their heritability is very low. Unfortunately these tend to be the most influential in generating income and/or reducing costs (fertility, survival, thrift, longevity and disease resistance/resilience being in this group).
All visual traits have higher heritabilities, but only affect the financials at carcass "harvest" time.
The maternal traits are collectively worth 4 times that of the harvest traits.

Already quoted in in this thread are Highlanders and EasyDam Composites. One has a reputation in NZ as being rather variable and but prolific and found on North Island steep hill country, marketed as Highlander. Whereas the other is sold under various brands each using the same breed mixes in NZ's deep South where the cooler climate sees all lambs finished on the farms where they were born. These have a different high fertility/milking component in their mix. But because both are multi generation Composites they have retained around three quarters of the hybrid vigour generated in the 3 way crossing resulting in excess of a 20% lift in productivity of the average of the 3 parent breeds.

Uniformity results from the original breeders emphasis on type. Both Composites have a history of their foundation breeds being screened for very high performance traits. The foundation flocks from where EasyDams were sourced had a decade or so of further genetic development before combining. The larger the flocks under development are and the larger the pool of sheep to select from are the keys to enable confining the range of type resulting from successive crossing. This is why Stabiliser cattle are uniform because they are highly selected out of a data base of 1.4 million animals. The 4 flocks of EasyDams come out of a data base considerably larger with the advantage of the reproduction rate of sheep over cattle, then recombined in the UK further enhancing hybrid vigour ........ the free lunch.

I know the UK marketing of livestock is mainly through live markets where even a matchbox full of wool grown on the head can mean a discount. So its up to you to sort out what is appropriate for you in the appearance stakes and go for that. If you try to correctively breed, you will end up with more variability at the end point.

Some posters here suggest Exlana's. I have no experience with them.
Some breeders in NZ are experimenting with shedding sheep with some reverting back to crossing their imported shedding genetics over their base flocks of woolly sheep in an effort to retain as much as possible of their maternal trait advantage and gain the shedding genes by smaller increments with successive generations. Never lose sight of where the money comes from.

 

[Troward]

I too would recommend crossing your Texel Mules with a ram of your chosen breed, and if it proves successful keep going. Why buy somebody else's cast offs with disease risk.

Please keep in mind that some traits are very hard to gain because their heritability is very low. Unfortunately these tend to be the most influential in generating income and/or reducing costs (fertility, survival, thrift, longevity and disease resistance/resilience being in this group).
All visual traits have higher heritabilities, but only affect the financials at carcass "harvest" time.
The maternal traits are collectively worth 4 times that of the harvest traits.

Already quoted in in this thread are Highlanders and EasyDam Composites. One has a reputation in NZ as being rather variable and but prolific and found on North Island steep hill country, marketed as Highlander. Whereas the other is sold under various brands each using the same breed mixes in NZ's deep South where the cooler climate sees all lambs finished on the farms where they were born. These have a different high fertility/milking component in their mix. But because both are multi generation Composites they have retained around three quarters of the hybrid vigour generated in the 3 way crossing resulting in excess of a 20% lift in productivity of the average of the 3 parent breeds.

Uniformity results from the original breeders emphasis on type. Both Composites have a history of their foundation breeds being screened for very high performance traits. The foundation flocks from where EasyDams were sourced had a decade or so of further genetic development before combining. The larger the flocks under development are and the larger the pool of sheep to select from are the keys to enable confining the range of type resulting from successive crossing. This is why Stabiliser cattle are uniform because they are highly selected out of a data base of 1.4 million animals. The 4 flocks of EasyDams come out of a data base considerably larger with the advantage of the reproduction rate of sheep over cattle, then recombined in the UK further enhancing hybrid vigour ........ the free lunch.

I know the UK marketing of livestock is mainly through live markets where even a matchbox full of wool grown on the head can mean a discount. So its up to you to sort out what is appropriate for you in the appearance stakes and go for that. If you try to correctively breed, you will end up with more variability at the end point.

Some posters here suggest Exlana's. I have no experience with them.
Some breeders in NZ are experimenting with shedding sheep with some reverting back to crossing their imported shedding genetics over their base flocks of woolly sheep in an effort to retain as much as possible of their maternal trait advantage and gain the shedding genes by smaller increments with successive generations. Never lose sight of where the money comes from.

I'm also interested in Easydams so am looking into 2 for this year to go over some romtex. I've always been a bit baffled by how much better I find the home bred romtex to the nz romney (for quite a few traits, not just carcass. The tex bit is british and the rom bit is nz), and obv put a lot of that down to hybrid vigour as you mention.....I'm not particularly clued up with genetics, so sorry if this is a thick question, but you mention the composite still having hybrid vigour....

Tefrom and other similar bases for Easydam perform stupidly well when looking on SIL. How much of that is just down to hybrid vigour? Surely in a composite that hybrid vigour will quickly wither down to nothing when it keeps being crossed with itself? I also see that they can be quite a bit bigger than a nz rom, so is that the main reason behind the major growth rates?

 

[easyram1]

I'm also interested in Easydams so am looking into 2 for this year to go over some romtex. I've always been a bit baffled by how much better I find the home bred romtex to the nz romney (for quite a few traits, not just carcass. The tex bit is british and the rom bit is nz), and obv put a lot of that down to hybrid vigour as you mention.....I'm not particularly clued up with genetics, so sorry if this is a thick question, but you mention the composite still having hybrid vigour....

Tefrom and other similar bases for Easydam perform stupidly well when looking on SIL. How much of that is just down to hybrid vigour? Surely in a composite that hybrid vigour will quickly wither down to nothing when it keeps being crossed with itself? I also see that they can be quite a bit bigger than a nz rom, so is that the main reason behind the major growth rates?

In terms of size one of the components of the SIL Maternal Index is adult size and in the analysis 'bigger is worse' and therefor has a negative weighting compared to ? what I assume is normal. I guess what we are looking for is the famous 'curvebender' who is born not over big, grows like stink to slaughter weight and then just tails of so does not end up as a huge ewe which is what you expect from a very fast growing lamb. One of our main source flocks works on the following criteria for ewes to enter the flock : ewe lambs have to be 40Kgs for tupping: they have to get in lamb: they have to rear however many lambs they have ie they don't lift any twins off: for tupping as gimmers they have to be a min of 60Kgs regardless of rearing multiples: all this = mature ewes weighing 65-67kgs who are expected to scan in the mid/upper 190s. He expects to wean 100% off about 2500 ewe lambs put to the tup each year. This means he expects to wean 2500 lambs off 2500 mated ewe lambs. Any females not meeting these requirements do not enter the flock.
You need a reply from GO on hybrid vigour who has given me a really interesting note on hybrid vigour and how it persists because we are using a 3 breed base and of course our 4 source flocks are all slightly different in their composition between each other and between years. As you know these top flocks are also using sires from each other's flocks to maintain their linkages for SIL so this also gives them a bit more variability in breed precise composition

 

[Troward]

In terms of size one of the components of the SIL Maternal Index is adult size and in the analysis 'bigger is worse' and therefor has a negative weighting compared to ? what I assume is normal. I guess what we are looking for is the famous 'curvebender' who is born not over big, grows like stink to slaughter weight and then just tails of so does not end up as a huge ewe which is what you expect from a very fast growing lamb. One of our main source flocks works on the following criteria for ewes to enter the flock : ewe lambs have to be 40Kgs for tupping: they have to get in lamb: they have to rear however many lambs they have ie they don't lift any twins off: for tupping as gimmers they have to be a min of 60Kgs regardless of rearing multiples: all this = mature ewes weighing 65-67kgs who are expected to scan in the mid/upper 190s. He expects to wean 100% off about 2500 ewe lambs put to the tup each year. This means he expects to wean 2500 lambs off 2500 mated ewe lambs. Any females not meeting these requirements do not enter the flock.
You need a reply from GO on hybrid vigour who has given me a really interesting note on hybrid vigour and how it persists because we are using a 3 breed base and of course our 4 source flocks are all slightly different in their composition between each other and between years. As you know these top flocks are also using sires from each other's flocks to maintain their linkages for SIL so this also gives them a bit more variability in breed precise composition

Thank you Haven't done much in the way of tupping ewe lambs previously, but seems sensible way to move if keeping mature ewe weights down...does that reduction in mature weight by tupping as a ewe lamb then affect the weaning weight of her crop of lambs (if that makes sense?)

I'm not too worried about over big sheep here...we've always had big sheep prior to the roms and whilst it may not be as efficient, if there is a better chance of being able to slaughter at weaning then it doesn't seem a bad thing (not sure what others think of that logic....I think being in the SE and very drought prone has a part to play in that).

Yes, will be interested in the answer on hybrid vigour

 

[ringi]

down...does that reduction in mature weight by tupping as a ewe lamb then affect the weaning weight of her crop of lambs

Yes but the software that calculates EBV for weening weights automatically adjusts for it provided you are topping enough ewe lambs

 

[Ysgythan]

In terms of size one of the components of the SIL Maternal Index is adult size and in the analysis 'bigger is worse' and therefor has a negative weighting compared to ? what I assume is normal. I guess what we are looking for is the famous 'curvebender' who is born not over big, grows like stink to slaughter weight and then just tails of so does not end up as a huge ewe which is what you expect from a very fast growing lamb. One of our main source flocks works on the following criteria for ewes to enter the flock : ewe lambs have to be 40Kgs for tupping: they have to get in lamb: they have to rear however many lambs they have ie they don't lift any twins off: for tupping as gimmers they have to be a min of 60Kgs regardless of rearing multiples: all this = mature ewes weighing 65-67kgs who are expected to scan in the mid/upper 190s. He expects to wean 100% off about 2500 ewe lambs put to the tup each year. This means he expects to wean 2500 lambs off 2500 mated ewe lambs. Any females not meeting these requirements do not enter the flock.
You need a reply from GO on hybrid vigour who has given me a really interesting note on hybrid vigour and how it persists because we are using a 3 breed base and of course our 4 source flocks are all slightly different in their composition between each other and between years. As you know these top flocks are also using sires from each other's flocks to maintain their linkages for SIL so this also gives them a bit more variability in breed precise composition

On the other hand putting the right Texel on the right mule is easy.

 

[Global ovine]

I'm also interested in Easydams so am looking into 2 for this year to go over some romtex. I've always been a bit baffled by how much better I find the home bred romtex to the nz romney (for quite a few traits, not just carcass. The tex bit is british and the rom bit is nz), and obv put a lot of that down to hybrid vigour as you mention.....I'm not particularly clued up with genetics, so sorry if this is a thick question, but you mention the composite still having hybrid vigour....

Tefrom and other similar bases for Easydam perform stupidly well when looking on SIL. How much of that is just down to hybrid vigour? Surely in a composite that hybrid vigour will quickly wither down to nothing when it keeps being crossed with itself? I also see that they can be quite a bit bigger than a nz rom, so is that the main reason behind the major growth rates?

Hybrid vigour isn't a fixed bonus, but varies with the parents used. However despite which breeds are used, the hybrid vigour accounts for the performance difference of the offspring over the average of the parent breeds for any measurable trait (i.e. scanning %, growth rate over a given period, etc.).
The highest amounts of hybrid vigour accrue where multiple breeds are included and where they are re-introduced by remixing (to get the desired performance governed by type acceptability in a large enough gene pool), the hybrid vigour component remains about three quarters of the original cross.
Modern performance recording schemes now offer animal breeders a very useful tool, namely genomic analysis. This doesn't just give proof of parentage, but calculates % of each breed. If type selection tends to favour a higher % of a parent breed, or conversely reduce another parent breed %, thus reducing hybrid vigour, the remixing and re-introduction restores the level of hybrid vigour back towards the maximum.
What has to be appreciated is the impressive rates of genetic development occurring in NZ in most breeds and certainly in the main maternal breeds. Although this has been charging upwards for all production traits since the first breeders started in the mid 1960s and became mainstream by the early 1980s, the hybrid vigour component of the Composite has enabled a step change in the comparative curves by as much as 20% in some traits.
That does not mean the the Composites then flat line, as they too are subjected to the same scrutiny as the pure Maternals. SIL analyses all breeds together, not separately.

 

[Troward]

Hybrid vigour isn't a fixed bonus, but varies with the parents used. However despite which breeds are used, the hybrid vigour accounts for the performance difference of the offspring over the average of the parent breeds for any measurable trait (i.e. scanning %, growth rate over a given period, etc.).
The highest amounts of hybrid vigour accrue where multiple breeds are included and where they are re-introduced by remixing (to get the desired performance governed by type acceptability in a large enough gene pool), the hybrid vigour component remains about three quarters of the original cross.
Modern performance recording schemes now offer animal breeders a very useful tool, namely genomic analysis. This doesn't just give proof of parentage, but calculates % of each breed. If type selection tends to favour a higher % of a parent breed, or conversely reduce another parent breed %, thus reducing hybrid vigour, the remixing and re-introduction restores the level of hybrid vigour back towards the maximum.
What has to be appreciated is the impressive rates of genetic development occurring in NZ in most breeds and certainly in the main maternal breeds. Although this has been charging upwards for all production traits since the first breeders started in the mid 1960s and became mainstream by the early 1980s, the hybrid vigour component of the Composite has enabled a step change in the comparative curves by as much as 20% in some traits.
That does not mean the the Composites then flat line, as they too are subjected to the same scrutiny as the pure Maternals. SIL analyses all breeds together, not separately.

That's great, thank you

 

[easyram1]

On the other hand putting the right Texel on the right mule is easy.

The thread started with the scenario of the owner having a flock of mules that have been tupped with a Texel ( as you suggest) to breed his replacements. His mules however have reached the end of the road and he now wants to go down the self replacing route ( as lots of others are now doing) So the question was what should he now do????

 

[Farmer Keith]

Heading towards a highlander-NCC-texel 3 way cross here as a hill sheep, started with a flock of blackys and an in bye mule flock. Mules were averaging 100kgs when I started weighing in 2017, sold them in 2018. The highlanders were bred off the blackys so are all first cross but are streets ahead in terms of performance. Two flocks running side by side at the moment until the blackys naturally leave the farm.

Hoping the next generation will have slightly better confirmation and less wool with them being bred off of texels as opposed to the originals. Average weight around 60kgs so perfectly capable to replace a horned ewe on the hill.

 

[neilo]

Heading towards a highlander-NCC-texel 3 way cross here as a hill sheep, started with a flock of blackys and an in bye mule flock. Mules were averaging 100kgs when I started weighing in 2017, sold them in 2018. The highlanders were bred off the blackys so are all first cross but are streets ahead in terms of performance. Two flocks running side by side at the moment until the blackys naturally leave the farm.

Hoping the next generation will have slightly better confirmation and less wool with them being bred off of texels as opposed to the originals. Average weight around 60kgs so perfectly capable to replace a horned ewe on the hill.

It’s crazy how big some mules get to now. I have a near neighbour that always buys some of the strongest mule replacements they can. There mature ewes would be that kind of weight too.
They produce big lambs and good cull prices (for mules) but appear to take some feeding to do it, both from a snacker and from a low stocking rate.

 

[Ysgythan]

The thread started with the scenario of the owner having a flock of mules that have been tupped with a Texel ( as you suggest) to breed his replacements. His mules however have reached the end of the road and he now wants to go down the self replacing route ( as lots of others are now doing) So the question was what should he now do????

I know I was being deliberately obtuse

 

[Global ovine]

Thank you Haven't done much in the way of tupping ewe lambs previously, but seems sensible way to move if keeping mature ewe weights down...does that reduction in mature weight by tupping as a ewe lamb then affect the weaning weight of her crop of lambs (if that makes sense?)

I'm not too worried about over big sheep here...we've always had big sheep prior to the roms and whilst it may not be as efficient, if there is a better chance of being able to slaughter at weaning then it doesn't seem a bad thing (not sure what others think of that logic....I think being in the SE and very drought prone has a part to play in that).

Yes, will be interested in the answer on hybrid vigour

@Troward
You asked questions about heavier sheep:

• Any reduction in Gimmer (2 tooth) tupping weight is the result of under feeding during her 1st lactation and after. Do not treat the lamb crop from a ewe lamb as a bonus, IT IS NOT, but rather an opportunity for redistribution of available pasture to gain more efficient use of the later spring surplus by maintaining pasture quality (digestibility).
• A 60 kg Gimmer at tupping time will easily make up her extra 5 kgs mature weight as a 4 tooth.
• The heavier a flock is at tupping, the heavier their lambs will be for birth weight and weaning. BUT ....... this is just a relationship usually found between flocks. The statistical error is large, meaning there exists a large component of individual variation. This is where recording and selection plays an important part. Where selection favours a bigger and heavier sheep, so will the lambs respond, But at what cost to maintain that body weight throughout the whole year.
• A farm only grows a measurable amount of pasture a year with seasonal variation. Farm fixed costs eats up about 30% the sale returns from this pasture, farm running costs (animal health, fertiliser, maintenance, fue,l etc.) consumes at least 50% of the returns. If one runs 100kg ewes (1.5 times heavier than 65kg girls) they will never make up the extra lamb numbers that the same weight in 65 kg ewes will provide.
• If these 65 kg ewes have been selectively bred to reduce lambing troubles and losses, to milk well so their lambs get off to a good start to develop their rumens earlier, and their lambs are responding to better genes for growth, then they have every chance of being equal if not superior to those lambs out of very heavy unselected ewes for performance.
• The only real opportunity pastoral farmers get to radically improve their profitability is how they use digestibility. Having more mouths on board in late spring to maintain quality ensures high growth rates in lambs and ewe BCS. This is especially so in countries such as the UK where spring explodes and quality of grass (not legumes and herbs) collapses when leaf age exceeds 25 days.