"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[som farmer]

fencing stakes, use pigtail ones from 'agri parts', about £2,
biggest problem we have is, some sort of stake eating animal that devours them, leaving no trace, we very seldom drag any up working ground, nor if we plough, and the hedge trimmer never hit's a pile of them either.
@Kiwi Pete there's a very big difference in what new 'quality' leys are claimed to do, and how stock, actually do. Dry/young stock, always seem to do better on older grass, which, or so we are told, is the opposite, of what they actually do. Milking cows certainly milk better off new grass,
Silage wise, little doubt that you make the best silage, off new grass, analysis's prove that, repeatedly, but the best hay, seems to come from older grass.
Farming is never straight forward, and the experts don't know everything, and some of those 'experts' make their living, telling farmers, twice, or thrice their age, how to run their farms/grass, and we listen !

 

[Kiwi Pete]

fencing stakes, use pigtail ones from 'agri parts', about £2,
biggest problem we have is, some sort of stake eating animal that devours them, leaving no trace, we very seldom drag any up working ground, nor if we plough, and the hedge trimmer never hit's a pile of them either.
@Kiwi Pete there's a very big difference in what new 'quality' leys are claimed to do, and how stock, actually do. Dry/young stock, always seem to do better on older grass, which, or so we are told, is the opposite, of what they actually do. Milking cows certainly milk better off new grass,
Silage wise, little doubt that you make the best silage, off new grass, analysis's prove that, repeatedly, but the best hay, seems to come from older grass.
Farming is never straight forward, and the experts don't know everything, and some of those 'experts' make their living, telling farmers, twice, or thrice their age, how to run their farms/grass, and we listen !

You can have that "new grass" feeling every rotation.... just take away the old grass and there's no option

 

[som farmer]

You can have that "new grass" feeling every rotation.... just take away the old grass and there's no option

nice old grass v new ley grass, analysis differently, new has more feed value, as silage.
milk from forage, is the key to profit, so feed value is king. That's the main reason we have started to grow dedicated cut only leys, some graze only, and some either or. It may be that, to obtain the max feed value, we will grow different mixes, for different classes of stock, that would really complicate matters, our plans, are for more extensive management.
Should be a simple answer, young grass is good grass, but we all know, some grasses are better than others, and we need to tap into the best grasses, for our farm, which will be different to others.
With concentrate price v milk price, it is ever more important, to fully utilise forage, in the past, poorer quality silage, could be compensated for, by feeding/mixing a compound with it, that was an easy way to excuse poor grass management, times are rather tighter now.
With the nutty professors creating new varieties, of better quality, higher yielding, grasses, that perhaps, are fundementally weaker, when stressed. Means careful selection is important, but faced with a multitude of data, hard to do. As with all farming, one needs to find a balance between perfection, and practical, we are a dry farm, so we have gone that way, whether those grasses, feed value wise, are as good, or not, as newer varieties, no idea, but they do keep growing, when others stop. We are pleased with our herbs, whether they are as good value, feed wise, we don't really know. In reality, there is very little we do know, about how many of combinations, actually produce what we need, we just hope they do, the only certainty, is legumes which provide N and protien.

 

[som farmer]

first 2 pics, plantain growing well, 3, plantain doing better than the grass, on the dry hill, both could do with a drink, l think. Interesting to see, not a lot of prg heads, but what prg is there, is covered in a rust.
Docks to show we can get it wrong, these will have a spray, after grazing, last pic, this empty hole, is both a fertiliser, and weed distribution system, docks shown had a coating from there, in june.
Musings over, our helper decided he is not suited to farming, and is going to work with computers ! So, downsizing dairy, growing a bit more corn, to feed over winter, more more and more clover, to aim towards more self sufficiency, and hopefully a quieter life speed.

 

[Blaithin]

cattle look well, and keen to move, cleaned up about right behind them. However, don't like the horns, don't you get any problems or injury with them, with our dairy, any cow with a horn, or stub, soon learns how to use them, aggressively, usually in the vaginal area, needed to stitch a few up, over the years, that, and bullying shy cows off feed.

Horns need space. In an inclosed area like a dairy parlour you’re looking at higher risk.

I have horned animals and in winter they're bitches. When the animals have to gather around food the hornless are more vulnerable to entering a horned space. Summer there’s next to no issues. The hornless are careful around areas like the water and the mineral, but the space is unlimited so they aren’t continuously forced into a horned animals space.

I have got a couple sets of horn weights to curve them down. If I take away their stabby angle I don’t think they’d be so effective. Have yet to use them though, I just have stabby horns

 

[Johnny Whiteheads]

Horns need space. In an inclosed area like a dairy parlour you’re looking at higher risk.

I have horned animals and in winter they're bitches. When the animals have to gather around food the hornless are more vulnerable to entering a horned space. Summer there’s next to no issues. The hornless are careful around areas like the water and the mineral, but the space is unlimited so they aren’t continuously forced into a horned animals space.

I have got a couple sets of horn weights to curve them down. If I take away their stabby angle I don’t think they’d be so effective. Have yet to use them though, I just have stabby horns

I have left the horns on all my heifer calves this year as.a mineral reserve. My plan over time to to improve hill and adapt a cow who can outwinter with very little supplementation. This is not currently possible with the cows I have so am introducing native breeding along with epigenetic effect of as much lifetime hill foraging as possible. No winter feeding would eliminate the issues with horns mostly? Cows surely have horns for a reason other than defense? Like Highland cows have handlebar horns to clear snow in the winter.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I like horns. The main thing I notice is that our horned cows and even steers end up being the main "maternity ward helpers" when there's a birth.
Much more noticeable in a small mixed herd, but Lexi and Lily are the two that will gently steer calves towards mum, or away from an electric wire or creek. Horns seem quite effective as "hands" in this respect, I've seen them use their horn to poke a new calf onto it's wobbly legs etc

Also, they're buggers for grazing under the wire and hooking the polywire when they back out, so I'd cull that out if I was going to be using temp fences for ever. Lexi is our chief fence-leaner-overer

 

[som farmer]

I have left the horns on all my heifer calves this year as.a mineral reserve. My plan over time to to improve hill and adapt a cow who can outwinter with very little supplementation. This is not currently possible with the cows I have so am introducing native breeding along with epigenetic effect of as much lifetime hill foraging as possible. No winter feeding would eliminate the issues with horns mostly? Cows surely have horns for a reason other than defense? Like Highland cows have handlebar horns to clear snow in the winter.

my lady friend, not, reported us to the ministry, again, horned cattle, in a tiny shed, with non horned and mounds of rotting carcasses lying around.
Well, horns and room, l agreed with the min, more than x3 recommended area, and the mounds of rotting animals, 1 calf, born dead, awaiting collection by nfs,co, born late the night before, and in the dedicated collection point. That particular cow, has moved back to 'civilisation'.
But horns on cattle, upset, and worry some members of the unknowing, and they 'have' to do something, usually rspca, or the min. You can imagine the uproar, if a person was to witness a 'fight', with blood.
With the dairy, cows will bully hfrs, or low status cows, of their food, especially when housed, or injury, both of which are unwelcome, and costly.
With members of the public wandering about, you never know how animals re-act, and for certain, we would be blamed, hassle we don't need. On the new ground we have taken on, with loads of well used footpaths, we make a point of talking to walkers, who keep telling us, how nice and quiet the cattle are, a different village attitude.
On use of horns, primary for defence, and clearing snow, to get to grass, both reasons long gone here, the other use, just to annoy us farmers.

 

[Blaithin]

There’s some theories that a de horned animal is unbalanced. Like a person losing a limb, they are always in a battle to compensate. Some folks, usually in a biodynamic genre, feel dehorning interrupts an animals potential, production and health. Upsets their natural energy/magnetic/etc.

I’m unsure if these theories would stand for polled animals as well. They haven’t experienced a loss, but are they genetically deprived?

A possible example of this is horned vs polled Herefords. Almost anyone will say the horned are hardier animals. Polled are simply more convenient.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

There’s some theories that a de horned animal is unbalanced. Like a person losing a limb, they are always in a battle to compensate. Some folks, usually in a biodynamic genre, feel dehorning interrupts an animals potential, production and health. Upsets their natural energy/magnetic/etc.

I’m unsure if these theories would stand for polled animals as well. They haven’t experienced a loss, but are they genetically deprived?

A possible example of this is horned vs polled Herefords. Almost anyone will say the horned are hardier animals. Polled are simply more convenient.

I had a question posed that cattle generally align themselves with the Earth's magnetic flux, so I began to look for it in the calf mobs - because I upset them more often.

Definitely couldn't see a pattern there!

But then, I spent a bit more time watching the cow-calf mob, which has a few steers in the mob, most of them having wee stubby horns, and it's quite surprising . The horned ones are generally all grazing in a muddle but lie to ruminate aligned in the same direction, but the polled cattle don't seem to.

I doubt it makes any difference, but I liked to make a new discovery because it gives me something else to emphasise "we don't know what we don't know"

 

[Rod Dumbreck]

There’s some theories that a de horned animal is unbalanced. Like a person losing a limb, they are always in a battle to compensate. Some folks, usually in a biodynamic genre, feel dehorning interrupts an animals potential, production and health. Upsets their natural energy/magnetic/etc.

I’m unsure if these theories would stand for polled animals as well. They haven’t experienced a loss, but are they genetically deprived?

A possible example of this is horned vs polled Herefords. Almost anyone will say the horned are hardier animals. Polled are simply more convenient.

There was a working museum near here that kept Sussex cattle with horns for draught work, word was that without horns they couldn't pull as well. My grandfather made his living with ox trains in Southern Africa.


We got rid of the one bunch or horny heifers because one lost an eye, and have dis-budded ever since.

 

[som farmer]

if you want to see some truly wild cattle, and how they handle them, watch fernando jc pereira on u'tube, good for a laugh, every now and then !

 

[som farmer]

my lady friend, not, reported us to the ministry, again, horned cattle, in a tiny shed, with non horned and mounds of rotting carcasses lying around.
Well, horns and room, l agreed with the min, more than x3 recommended area, and the mounds of rotting animals, 1 calf, born dead, awaiting collection by nfs,co, born late the night before, and in the dedicated collection point. That particular cow, has moved back to 'civilisation'.
But horns on cattle, upset, and worry some members of the unknowing, and they 'have' to do something, usually rspca, or the min. You can imagine the uproar, if a person was to witness a 'fight', with blood.
With the dairy, cows will bully hfrs, or low status cows, of their food, especially when housed, or injury, both of which are unwelcome, and costly.
With members of the public wandering about, you never know how animals re-act, and for certain, we would be blamed, hassle we don't need. On the new ground we have taken on, with loads of well used footpaths, we make a point of talking to walkers, who keep telling us, how nice and quiet the cattle are, a different village attitude.
On use of horns, primary for defence, and clearing snow, to get to grass, both reasons long gone here, the other use, just to annoy us farmers.

just how different villages can be, in their attitudes, some cattle were out, near the new ground, we had loads of messages sent to us, all nicely concerned. Turned out, they were not ours, asked some walkers, if they had seen them, they hadn't, but told us how nice and quiet they are. Home village, would have been rude rants. Having got used to the latter, it's big big change, but welcome. Most of the 'locals', l don't even know a lot of names, they just don't want farmers, every thing from mud on road, waiting for cows to cross the road -even had to stand in front of cars, to stop them driving through, big machinery, working late, or smells, they complain, vocally, or letters.

 

[Rod Dumbreck]

just how different villages can be, in their attitudes, some cattle were out, near the new ground, we had loads of messages sent to us, all nicely concerned. Turned out, they were not ours, asked some walkers, if they had seen them, they hadn't, but told us how nice and quiet they are. Home village, would have been rude rants. Having got used to the latter, it's big big change, but welcome. Most of the 'locals', l don't even know a lot of names, they just don't want farmers, every thing from mud on road, waiting for cows to cross the road -even had to stand in front of cars, to stop them driving through, big machinery, working late, or smells, they complain, vocally, or letters.

One neighbour I met on the footpath started ranting about the "24hr " ploughing behind her house, I just assured her it wouldn't happen if the planning went through for the golf course. The look of abject horror was worth it, even if I had to admit I was making it up.
Caught her out when she complained about the pile of sewage sludge, not on our ground, I said it was unfair to blame next door for the smell as we all had a hand in it. I think she avoids me now.

 

[som farmer]

our immediate neighbour, literally straight across the road, thinks she has the final say, in everything we do, she doesn't, and has annoyed me enough, to give her both barrels, or the fullest of a dressing down, really didn't know, what to say, on another occasion, when she was moaning about cattle mooing, told her we were converting the shed, to house 800 pigs, and she would have something to moan about, and l would still ignore her. She saw us measuring up, month ago, haven't heard a thing, but l will.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

had to chuckle when I read this

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

had to chuckle when I read thisView attachment 986222

Except it's so tragic.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

It is, but then it's also really helpful by being tragic, and true. I've said many times that the easiest way to lose N from a system is to apply it at any rate, but always get "that look from people"

now I can return "that look" and not feel like I'm talking out my ass

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

Don't know but we have cut our n on cereals by between 50 and 70%. Life seems to go on. None on grass for well over 10 years

 

[som farmer]

beginning slowly to realise, high rates of urea and N, while producing a yield increase, are unnecessary, that goes against all l have been taught, and still being told. There is little doubt, going forward, more and more restrictions are going to reduce their use, by price, and legislation.
Looking back at what we used to use, 40 yrs ago, nearly makes me cringe, first cut, used to get 3 bags of 20:10:10, and 3 of N, that was before 2nd cut, that was 3bags of 'after cut'. Times and knowledge have reduced those rates, could be interesting to see total fert purchases, in 1970, to compare with now, as a country, a huge difference ?
There again, little thought was given to pollution, clover, manure, it was, chuck more on. The one good thing about NVZ rules, is it restricts N use, and makes you realise the value of shite. We will continue to use N, in targeted use, spring mainly, and all fert will contain sulphur, that gives a huge return, you can see a definite line between the have, and had not. That need is down to 'climate change', they stopped using coal fired power stations.
I would like to see more definite figures, of how much N good clover leys produce, and at what stage, that N is utilised by grass, as in spring uptake.
Right, now for the shocking news, straight from a merchant ag buyer, now.
ICI or CF, have stopped producing N fert, not sure about blended, because with the rising cost of gas, from which fert is made, todays price would have to be £500+ ton, for 34.5 N. This came from a manager, who has been told, not to take any orders for fert, or quote, imported is now over £400, but any orders, not taken.
Calcium, as in milk fever, is not available, at least 3 weeks delivery time needed, if they can even get it.
no stubble turnip, or rape seed, for next year, unless, doubtful, a new source can be found, flea beetle. The list went on and on, either not obtainable, or on long back order, delivery date, not known.
That news, came from 1 of the major 3 ag supply firms, in the UK.
That, will certainly alter farming, and of course, nobody knows if it temporary, or this will be the new norm. As a final note, they have sold out of clover seed, wonder why ?