"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[Woolless]

View attachment 998654

Today's Telegraph.

Are any animals really not "sentient"?

More significantly, are plants "sentient"?

Sounds a silly question but, after reading 'The secret life of plants' it's not quite so clear.

I've never understood why you would throw a lobster straight into boiling water rather than a quick, sharp knife through the head or a spell in the freezer first. A bit like drowning unwanted kittens in a bag, I suppose. Easier on the person doing it but worse for the animal. I think that's why they get away with the worst broiler chicken systems etc. 'Oh, I don't want to think about that'. Well, if the majority of the public don't, then there's no push to change them.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Been illegal here for a while, they don't taste anything like the same when they're killed first I must admit.

 

[Henarar]

Ignorance was bliss.... it's really hard to come back from that, you can't unthink that your thistle and you are actually equals as far as life goes, that when you go out in the world with intent to injure then it's just that

unfortunately we also must eat to sustain our own life, and I don't think that sharks feel anything about the fish they eat... so, back to empty and meaningless, it is.

Definitely the best meat you'll eat is meat you helped be in the world, because it's already a part of us

Cut down a tree that has been chatting to the tree next door for 300 years

this can very soon get like the vegan rubbish, unless your not going move, eat or breath again then something is going to suffer so it leaves one of two options either do away with yourself or say feck to it and get on

 

[hendrebc]

Cut down a tree that has been chatting to the tree next door for 300 years

this can very soon get like the vegan rubbish, unless your not going move, eat or breath again then something is going to suffer so it leaves one of two options either do away with yourself or say feck to it and get on

Maybe trees do chat with each other but I don't think many other living things are as sentimental as people are. Animals understand that things die and why better than we do. I'd assume that's the same for plants as well if they can talk to each other.

 

[som farmer]

Finally got some pictures of the field that's been rested since late summer. Ewes will be going here early December on daily shifts with some hay. Really died back at the bottom last few weeks it should probably have been grazed a month ago but I need feed over winter. Making some sheet compost by the looks of it.
View attachment 998633View attachment 998634
View attachment 998635
Sheep picture just because
View attachment 998636
Looking a bit empty they were ready to be moved.

wouldn't be to much ryegrass in the ley, don't see the seed heads.
one of the things l have worries about, is rust in the grass, and how does that impact on the quality of the sward, or even on the residual, it is a disease, might not matter that much at all.
Good job clover doesn't get it, we are nice and green.
And cows still out by day, brilliant, nearly unheard of, and plenty of clover/herbs/grass for them to chomp through.
Wildlife, we have seen an increase in ground nesting birds, and hedgehogs have re-appeared, more to do with badger cull, l suspect, rather than 'environment', but there are plenty of hawks about, even penigrenes, so that indicates plenty of food for them.

It is interesting to read the views in the fert thread, and how people think, dairy views, seem to think, carry on, especially if price of milk increases, we go up 2.2ppl 1st jan, and cash in, another says it will cost an extra £40,000 a year. It reminds me of milk quota, whereas on any 1 farm, it was correct to buy/lease quota in, as a whole, it was the worst thing to do, and removed countless £millions from dairy farmers pockets. Makes me think guvs desires, are being fulfilled, more production = cheaper food. And here we go, boom and bust again.

In all honesty, this is one of the very few chances, as farmers, we will have, to balance the value of food, to a realistic price, and pay us the deserved living we need, and the above attitude, is at odds with that. But, if we do see the correct rewards, this will/should remove a lot of the financial pressure, we are all under, that removal, would enable farmers to pay more attention, to the environment, a win/win action.

That is all before talking about alternative forms of farming, organic, holistic or regen, and how farming along those lines, could seriously increase our profits, and help the environment, or an emergency brake, on the hamster wheel ! Financially we deserve a decent living, and leaves spare money to spend, improving our farms relation ship to nature.
If, as some suggest, we can farm, and rebuild soil fertility, which l think we can, it opens up a whole new realm of farming, until some idiot writes a rule book, and gives it to defra, for civil servants to ultra complicate. To return to the start of post, that extra cost, of £40,000 in increased fert cost, could be re-written, as money saved, or one step more, as £40,000 extra profit, given fert has doubled in price ( actually more ), by maintaining out put, without buying any fert. All of a sudden, we are talking serious amounts of money, yet many farmers would dismiss it, as rubbish.

All down to a shitty little virus, that gave the wheel of life, a blow out.
With countries gearing up for more lock downs/stricter rules, increasingly, self sufficiency in home grown foods, will increase in importance, could we be seeing, the opening moves, to usher in, a new golden age of farming ? We can but dream ...

 

[som farmer]

View attachment 998654

Today's Telegraph.

Are any animals really not "sentient"?

More significantly, are plants "sentient"?

Sounds a silly question but, after reading 'The secret life of plants' it's not quite so clear.

that will all disappear, as food inflation starts, man is a predator, we only survive, by predation on other living things. A nice thought, for middle aged, comfortably well of, well fed, groups of people. For the rest, no comment !

 

[Woolless]

Been illegal here for a while, they don't taste anything like the same when they're killed first I must admit.

That's interesting. I'd fancied trying one for ages, wasn't that impressed when I did, although I do like seafood.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

unless your not going move, eat or breath again then something is going to suffer so it leaves one of two options either do away with yourself or say feck to it and get on

Exactly my point. I'm beginning to see that plants are probably as sentient as animals (including us) but just exhibit it over a different timescale.

If that's so then your final point is spot on and the Vegan faith have a serious conflict to resolve....

 

[som farmer]

Exactly my point. I'm beginning to see that plants are probably as sentient as animals (including us) but just exhibit it over a different timescale.

If that's so then your final point is spot on and the Vegan faith have a serious conflict to resolve....

if they stick to their principles, something l would advise them to do, shouldn't be to long, before they cease to pester us, a sensible permanent cure !!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Samcowman]

Exactly my point. I'm beginning to see that plants are probably as sentient as animals (including us) but just exhibit it over a different timescale.

If that's so then your final point is spot on and the Vegan faith have a serious conflict to resolve....

I prefer to word communicate to talk. Everything communicates but on different levels. It’s better if things don’t get anthropomorphised too much though.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

I prefer to word communicate to talk. Everything communicates but on different levels. It’s better if things don’t get anthropomorphised too much though.

But are they exchangeable?

I know a few people who talk regularly but seldom communicate

 

[Fenwick]

Things like wolves, bears, big cats, are obvious, and any thought of releasing them, would fail.

You'll be getting wolves soon enough. I think we should have them permenantly around here witin the next 5 years or so.

 

[som farmer]

You'll be getting wolves soon enough. I think we should have them permenantly around here witin the next 5 years or so.

l know deer swim out to lundy island, 10/11 miles, but wolves swimming the channel ?
But you are probably right, some idiotic zealot, will secretly release them, where they ''think'' is the right place.
There are continuing stories about big cats, roaming wilder areas, and some sensible farmers, will tell you there are.
Pretty obvious beaver have been illegally released, the mentality of those people, well, releasing is fine, if controlled, and monitored, but just chucking them out ? Disease, food, suitability, they have no idea. We shall never know about the 'disasters'.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I can remember a few irresponsible beavers being released when I was in my youth, it affected my life greatly at the time

 

[som farmer]

I can remember a few irresponsible beavers being released when I was in my youth, it affected my life greatly at the time

ahhhhhhh, that's why you look cross, and carry a club, don't worry, they don't attack humans, l think.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

All jokies aside, I wasn't joking when I said it affected my life, it really did and probably still does. Even books or experiences that change "how you see the world", once you have it or read it, you don't come fully back to where you were.

Put it into the context of rewilding, then, and it can't go back to how it was, because so much has changed, and some things cannot be deleted

 

[Jonny B88]

wouldn't be to much ryegrass in the ley, don't see the seed heads.
one of the things l have worries about, is rust in the grass, and how does that impact on the quality of the sward, or even on the residual, it is a disease, might not matter that much at all.
Good job clover doesn't get it, we are nice and green.
And cows still out by day, brilliant, nearly unheard of, and plenty of clover/herbs/grass for them to chomp through.
Wildlife, we have seen an increase in ground nesting birds, and hedgehogs have re-appeared, more to do with badger cull, l suspect, rather than 'environment', but there are plenty of hawks about, even penigrenes, so that indicates plenty of food for them.

It is interesting to read the views in the fert thread, and how people think, dairy views, seem to think, carry on, especially if price of milk increases, we go up 2.2ppl 1st jan, and cash in, another says it will cost an extra £40,000 a year. It reminds me of milk quota, whereas on any 1 farm, it was correct to buy/lease quota in, as a whole, it was the worst thing to do, and removed countless £millions from dairy farmers pockets. Makes me think guvs desires, are being fulfilled, more production = cheaper food. And here we go, boom and bust again.

In all honesty, this is one of the very few chances, as farmers, we will have, to balance the value of food, to a realistic price, and pay us the deserved living we need, and the above attitude, is at odds with that. But, if we do see the correct rewards, this will/should remove a lot of the financial pressure, we are all under, that removal, would enable farmers to pay more attention, to the environment, a win/win action.

That is all before talking about alternative forms of farming, organic, holistic or regen, and how farming along those lines, could seriously increase our profits, and help the environment, or an emergency brake, on the hamster wheel ! Financially we deserve a decent living, and leaves spare money to spend, improving our farms relation ship to nature.
If, as some suggest, we can farm, and rebuild soil fertility, which l think we can, it opens up a whole new realm of farming, until some idiot writes a rule book, and gives it to defra, for civil servants to ultra complicate. To return to the start of post, that extra cost, of £40,000 in increased fert cost, could be re-written, as money saved, or one step more, as £40,000 extra profit, given fert has doubled in price ( actually more ), by maintaining out put, without buying any fert. All of a sudden, we are talking serious amounts of money, yet many farmers would dismiss it, as rubbish.

All down to a shitty little virus, that gave the wheel of life, a blow out.
With countries gearing up for more lock downs/stricter rules, increasingly, self sufficiency in home grown foods, will increase in importance, could we be seeing, the opening moves, to usher in, a new golden age of farming ? We can but dream ...

Problem with a lot of farmers mindsets however is, when a profit does come around, God forbid that money hung around too long! Shiny metal disease kicks in and suddenly money is tight again. I think in this great concept of holism is the secret to a lot of the issues of the world not just farmers, because it makes you think and question all decisions as to whether they are actually necessary or indeed if they’re not.

 

[hendrebc]

l know deer swim out to lundy island, 10/11 miles, but wolves swimming the channel ?
But you are probably right, some idiotic zealot, will secretly release them, where they ''think'' is the right place.
There are continuing stories about big cats, roaming wilder areas, and some sensible farmers, will tell you there are.
Pretty obvious beaver have been illegally released, the mentality of those people, well, releasing is fine, if controlled, and monitored, but just chucking them out ? Disease, food, suitability, they have no idea. We shall never know about the 'disasters'.

I've no problems with releasing things to to try and rewild some places BUT... We have to admit when it isn't working and be allowed do something about it. If the wolves, lynx, bears end up killing livestock then we would have to be allowed to stop them with lethal means not just electric fence or magic potions sprinkled on the ground or some shite like that.
I would think there are areas that are mostly arable or trees with lots of deer and not much livestock where lynx and bears would fit in quite nicely (Wolves not so much they are a very bad idea) but again if they started causing problems with livestock you would have to be allowed to control them. Beavers as well you should be able to control them if they start causing problems. Look at how much trouble Badgers are causing with hedgehogs, ground nesting birds and TB.
I do wonder if deer would be less of s problem if it wasn't so bloody hard to be allowed to kill them. If you could legally do it with shotguns and big lurchers again and no one pee'd about with shooting rights deer wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem like in some areas. You'd need to make killing problem lynx or bear or whatever easy as well. No having to apply for lisences or doing a survey and having some clipboard stroker come for a site visit some sh!t like that.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Problem with a lot of farmers mindsets however is, when a profit does come around, God forbid that money hung around too long! Shiny metal disease kicks in and suddenly money is tight again. I think in this great concept of holism is the secret to a lot of the issues of the world not just farmers, because it makes you think and question all decisions as to whether they are actually necessary or indeed if they’re not.

A lot of non-farmers are stuck in the "living payday to payday" thing as well.

It's like slavery, but with the illusion of being free...

trouble is when you are free, the not-so-free try to p!ss on your tent, lost count of the times I've heard someone on TFF say "oh, well it's alright for you, because you have.... (insert excuse here) but most of us don't"

why they don't is the result of choices made, they chose this and I chose otherwise. I actually planned and fought to be free, even though I was getting laughed and and bitched about at the time (those beaver releasing years)

I actually put a beaver back once to go fix a leaky toilet for a tenant in the wee small hours of Sunday morning, and I never saw that beaver again.

The fear of missing out is why people miss out.
or, put another way. the meaning and significance they attach to their basic human fears, grows their fear into something that runs their life for them

 

[Kiwi Pete]