"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[Fenwick]

One compromise, is to go easy with the sheep - maybe just drift them easily around, but rotate the cattle? They can be your "heavy lifters" to an extent, as they are much easier to manage with silly-string, and you can plan what parts of the farm need their impact the most, and just target those

Seems the leader follower system is better with a full rotation between each stock class. Esp as rejection from sheep fouling will be reasonable with cattle following immediately.

Would it be better to plan for the cattle and just have the sheep floating around just in front and move them on when the cows need a shift whilst the lambs are on the ewes once the lambs are away then would it work to have the ewes on tidy up behind the cows. Or would their grazing habit not suit that? This is coming from a non sheep person.

So next year we should be integrating the sheep with the cattle.

The above was our basic idea. The sheep have access to the whole field and pick he best and the catle are managed as usual.

Just a modification on the back fence (two wires) to stop them getting back at the regrowth.

Thanks the for warning on the cows avoiding the sheep dung. @Nsoiled I didn't think of that. It doesnt seem to work like that the other way round.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I had plenty of grass this year, (Hay height) and I set up tight electric fences for my ewes and lambs so that they ate a third, trampled a third and left a third. I moved them once a day.

It worked really well for the grass - the regrowth of the herbal leys was fantastic.

Unfortunately it didn't suit the sheep. I ended up with scrawny ewes and lambs.

I'm at a bit of a loss as to what I should do next year.

Shoot for leafier pasture? I mean, in my pics you see all the seedheads at the moment but the goal is always to aim for a better leaf:stem ratio

that's where residuals are a big distraction IMHO, if you shoot for higher residuals then you have more "ick" next time as @som farmer has found

with sheep, who don't really have the weight to crush stemmy stuff to the extent the stem is killed off, then you have to be quite careful unless you plan to mow it down afterwards

I know the guys in various groups who just use sheep, tend to be able to use 1,2 wire fences for their breaks, so it isn't "restriction" but "movement" doing the hard work

I will ask them a few questions, and see what I can dig up for you, a lot of set-stockers call rotational grazing "controlled starvation" and it can be like that.
My immediate hunch from what you've said is that your recovery period is too long for the utilisation you're getting.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

So next year we should be integrating the sheep with the cattle.

The above was our basic idea. The sheep have access to the whole field and pick he best and the catle are managed as usual.

Just a modification on the back fence (two wires) to stop them getting back at the regrowth.

Thanks the for warning on the cows avoiding the sheep dung. @Nsoiled I didn't think of that. It doesnt seem to work like that the other way round.

Lanolin from where the sheep lie down is more problematic than their dung, from what we saw, it prevents that area from being utilised and we saw really patchy grazing - but then we were also using low density so the "shark attack" wasn't really there

 

[Kiwi Pete]

"Shark attack" or "feeding frenzy" teaches stock really good grazing habits

(had a bit of a water leak there)
I mean, normally stock don't know to eat docks but when they stumble onto it..

then they forget they aren't meant to eat docks and ragwort and buttercups and just "Grab, Snatch and Take" (GST in NZ is like VAT in the UK)

hence the study of animal behaviour is really important, I mean time takes care of the pasture but animal behaviour is directly responsible for how they graze - what is eaten, what is left

 

[Crofter64]

Would it be better to plan for the cattle and just have the sheep floating around just in front and move them on when the cows need a shift whilst the lambs are on the ewes once the lambs are away then would it work to have the ewes on tidy up behind the cows. Or would their grazing habit not suit that? This is coming from a non sheep person.

In the few weeks that I tried grazing cattle and sheep together I fenced a 3 day break and let the sheep wander at will and moved the cattle twice a day for 2.5 days. Then I would move the sheep to a new 3 day break first , followed by the cattle. The last half day break was where the sheep hung out, far from the encroaching cattle ,and wasn’t worth grazing. It was a pain to set up the netting and cross fences -which is why I only ever did it for a month- but it slowed the rotation down considerably and I will doit again for that reason alone.

 

[Rob Garrett]

In the few weeks that I tried grazing cattle and sheep together I fenced a 3 day break and let the sheep wander at will and moved the cattle twice a day for 2.5 days. Then I would move the sheep to a new 3 day break first , followed by the cattle. The last half day break was where the sheep hung out, far from the encroaching cattle ,and wasn’t worth grazing. It was a pain to set up the netting and cross fences -which is why I only ever did it for a month- but it slowed the rotation down considerably and I will doit again for that reason alone.

Like the sound of that. Could have 3 wire's @ the 3 day break & work cattle behind 1 wire to save time/cost. What's the thinking behind netting? It's a PITA to move & potential lamb killer here.

 

[Nsoiled]

Shoot for leafier pasture? I mean, in my pics you see all the seedheads at the moment but the goal is always to aim for a better leaf:stem ratio

that's where residuals are a big distraction IMHO, if you shoot for higher residuals then you have more "ick" next time as @som farmer has found

with sheep, who don't really have the weight to crush stemmy stuff to the extent the stem is killed off, then you have to be quite careful unless you plan to mow it down afterwards

I know the guys in various groups who just use sheep, tend to be able to use 1,2 wire fences for their breaks, so it isn't "restriction" but "movement" doing the hard work

I will ask them a few questions, and see what I can dig up for you, a lot of set-stockers call rotational grazing "controlled starvation" and it can be like that.
My immediate hunch from what you've said is that your recovery period is too long for the utilisation you're getting.

Main monitoring point is litter decomposition (carbon cycling). If you're trampling ok. But is this residual cycling, or is it just stem with thatch accumulating. If it's the latter then adjustments to grazing practice are indicated.

 

[Nsoiled]

Like the sound of that. Could have 3 wire's @ the 3 day break & work cattle behind 1 wire to save time/cost. What's the thinking behind netting? It's a PITA to move & potential lamb killer here.

No netting

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Main monitoring point is litter decomposition (carbon cycling). If you're trampling ok. But is this residual cycling, or is it just stem with thatch accumulating. If it's the latter then adjustments to grazing practice are indicated.

Yes, completely agree. We have great ability to cycle it now, but it certainly didn't begin that way.

It takes a bit of practice to grow the litter in the plant, graze it well (but not too well) and get the rotation speed correct that the soil hasn't eaten it all before you get back.

 

[Fake it ‘til you make it]

Yes, completely agree. We have great ability to cycle it now, but it certainly didn't begin that way.

It takes a bit of practice to grow the litter in the plant, graze it well (but not too well) and get the rotation speed correct that the soil hasn't eaten it all before you get back.

So too much thatch is a bad thing but too little thatch is also a bad thing? Can you expand on that?

 

[Nsoiled]

So too much thatch is a bad thing but too little thatch is also a bad thing? Can you expand on that?

Basically if it's building-up it's not cycling adequately. If it's pale and it's dry it's oxidising, ie no feeding the soil (cycling/decomposing). The too little thing doesn't seem a problem to me, that's more to do with the age of the covers you in at, and the amount of senescent or partially senescent material present. With long rest periods (and stockpiling) there will always be proportion of this material. So if you grow it you need to cycle it.

 

[som farmer]

3 leaf's, as 4th one grows, 1st one dies back.
the NZ plate metre system, basically say's not to get to the 4th leaf stage
we try to leave a leaf, for the soil build up.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

So too much thatch is a bad thing but too little thatch is also a bad thing? Can you expand on that?

I wouldn't want to see thatch, but litter, I see the two as distinct?

I would term the uneaten portion of pasture that's not been impacted sufficiently "thatch" as in it is basically 'a buildup of standing dead matter below grazing or mowing height' and often a direct consquence of incomplete, regular grazing

To differentiate, I'd term litter as being material from higher up the plant, crushed onto the surface by herd effect/animal impact.
By being in contact with the soil, it's more likely to become part of the soil food web, and likely well mixed with dung/urine to help it along

this will last 8-10 weeks in our conditions, thatch will last until the end of winter

possibly one notable difference is that a lot of new plants will erupt from this lodged material whereas thatch can prevent that from happening - it's a primary difference between grazing short grass shorter, and tall grass /total /regenerative grazing. One system needs no help.

this is about what I would like to see in a ryegrass-dominant paddock, whereas a better sward for our purposes would have plenty of cocksfoot for much more soft litter that is easier to cycle

 

[Samcowman]

I wouldn't want to see thatch, but litter, I see the two as distinct?

I would term the uneaten portion of pasture that's not been impacted sufficiently "thatch" as in it is basically 'a buildup of standing dead matter below grazing or mowing height' and often a direct consquence of incomplete, regular grazing

To differentiate, I'd term litter as being material from higher up the plant, crushed onto the surface by herd effect/animal impact.
By being in contact with the soil, it's more likely to become part of the soil food web, and likely well mixed with dung/urine to help it along View attachment 1002585
this will last 8-10 weeks in our conditions, thatch will last until the end of winter

possibly one notable difference is that a lot of new plants will erupt from this lodged material whereas thatch can prevent that from happening - it's a primary difference between grazing short grass shorter, and tall grass /total /regenerative grazing. One system needs no help.

this is about what I would like to see in a ryegrass-dominant paddock, whereas a better sward for our purposes would have plenty of cocksfoot for much more soft litter that is easier to cycle

So in short the difference between thatch and litter is proximity to the soil and how easily the soil can get at the plant matter.

 

[Guleesh]

Proper thatch is something that builds up when manure isn't present and the soil is too dead to deal with it from what I've seen. There was areas of it here that were pretty bad, a really dense mat inches deep, containing several years dead growth with very compacted soil under it, had to jab at it to a few times to cut a spade through, the introduction of plenty manure on the top through mob grazing with animals not full of cypermethrin etc seems to have improved the situation very quickly.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

So in short the difference between thatch and litter is proximity to the soil and how easily the soil can get at the plant matter.

Yes, when you think "Carbon", think of "speed" at the same time, because it is always flowing in and out of the landscape

exudates - very fast

litter - in our scenario, this was about 6 weeks growth and litter may last 6 weeks until mostly decomposed

thatch/standing stems - very very slow, prone to oxidation - as Guleesh notes, it may be years old, so doing nothing of great use to us

this is why much of the "regenerative grazing" happening is not really regenerative or even very sustainable - it can be a good kickstarter if carried out for a year or two, and a great way to test your observations

This is possibly a good point in the conversation to examine that just as "farming" and "landowning" or "tenanting" are distinct but often stacked together; input-output agriculture and regenerative grazing are possibly distinct also.

It's good to see how these wholes within wholes can be better managed if we can dissect things a little, before we put them back together.

 

[Crofter64]

Like the sound of that. Could have 3 wire's @ the 3 day break & work cattle behind 1 wire to save time/cost. What's the thinking behind netting? It's a PITA to move & potential lamb killer here.

Netting is the only thing that keeps my sheep in. They sneeze at poly wire. Daily breaks for cattle are made with poly wire and the sheep scoot under it.Never lost a lamb yet. Also, I don’t worry about predation.Coyotes are notorious sheep killers.

 

[Henarar]

sheep and a bit of a wet time will get rid of thatch

 

[Fenwick]

So in short the difference between thatch and litter is proximity to the soil and how easily the soil can get at the plant matter.

I seem to remember a Graeme Hand presentation, where he discussed David Tongways method of scoring this part of the biological cycle.

If i remember rightly.

Standing plant material = 1 point
Plant material lying down = 10 points.
Plant material lying down and with good soil contact. =100 points.

Which is where the importance if density comes in, and also why I asked @kiwipete how many feet/ha he was using rather than how many LWU.

 

[crashbox]

I seem to remember a Graeme Hand presentation, where he discussed David Tongways method of scoring this part of the biological cycle.

If i remember rightly.

Standing plant material = 1 point
Plant material lying down = 10 points.
Plant material lying down and with good soil contact. =100 points.

Which is where the importance if density comes in, and also why I asked @kiwipete how many feet/ha he was using rather than how many LWU.

An interesting alternative to the "pounds (liveweight) per acre" metric some american mob grazers use, Thanks @Fenwick

I did worry that I was only achieving 50,000 lbs/acre on a once a day shift, as had been told you need six figures to achieve the trampling.

But I actually think the results were satisfactory to achieve the soil contact, was at the start of Autumn. Through a drier summer the higher stocking rate may be more necessary.

In which case a batt latch becomes a sensible investment.