"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[GC74]

got to admit your cattle look well, must be doing something right ! Don't know what your store cattle prices are like, over here, you would have to sit down, to get over the shock.
My question about why grass seed rates have increased 250% since 1970 produced some good 'stir up' on the grass seed thread, most thinking me to be incredibly tight. It produced one suprising answer though, EU rules allow for lower germination rates, couple that with 0.7% 'rubbish', dead husk, stem etc, a bag of seed could be as low as 66.5 % viable, so important to check origin.
It was definitely a mistake to get my old college textbooks out of the cupboard, the way we do things now.... a lot could be relearnt, to our advantage. One thing i will alter with grass seed, we only use medium to large leaf w clover, on the principle cows don't/can't eat the smaller leaf varieties, we will include some, to try and 'thicken' ground cover, and they will put extra N back in, as well.
Found some info about using clover swards, and drilling w wheat in them, that must have been in my 'memory bank' when i said about drilling wheat into a clover stand. I think further browsing is called for, i may regain some useful thoughts, it is, however, scary to see how farming has altered.

Went through a large seed cleaning company here a few years back and I was asked where I got my grass seed which I told them and the said oh that’s good then. So I asked why they said that and they said there’s a big outfit down my way that very handy for getting rid of weedy and poor germ lines!!!
So in your info were they drilling the wheat into existing clover sward?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

got to admit your cattle look well, must be doing something right ! Don't know what your store cattle prices are like, over here, you would have to sit down, to get over the shock.
My question about why grass seed rates have increased 250% since 1970 produced some good 'stir up' on the grass seed thread, most thinking me to be incredibly tight. It produced one suprising answer though, EU rules allow for lower germination rates, couple that with 0.7% 'rubbish', dead husk, stem etc, a bag of seed could be as low as 66.5 % viable, so important to check origin.
It was definitely a mistake to get my old college textbooks out of the cupboard, the way we do things now.... a lot could be relearnt, to our advantage. One thing i will alter with grass seed, we only use medium to large leaf w clover, on the principle cows don't/can't eat the smaller leaf varieties, we will include some, to try and 'thicken' ground cover, and they will put extra N back in, as well.
Found some info about using clover swards, and drilling w wheat in them, that must have been in my 'memory bank' when i said about drilling wheat into a clover stand. I think further browsing is called for, i may regain some useful thoughts, it is, however, scary to see how farming has altered.

I'm not too sure either, "not too flash at the moment" is the general word on the street.
Probably in the $4.45[ish] per kilo range at the processor so you'd have your pick of them for $1500.
I don't think the China bound incalf ones are going to fetch as much as the guys think either, apparently 90 have been pulled because farmers are sick of waiting. Glad I'm only the grazier!

Yeah I read that with interest, I guess there's been a whole heap of "progress" in agriculture since the 60's.
Silage, it was probably in its infancy in those days, so didn't need the big sugary tetraploids to feed the lactobacillus in the ensiling process, or make a dairy cow pump however many litres buys the latest Fendt

More of a focus on one grass than a range of species, they were still harvesting browntop here well into the 80s, now it doesn't take ½CWT of browntop or timothy to go a very long way!

Both in time, and 'space'. I guess the flasher everything gets, the more "we have to" drag out and put back in to feed the banks and merchants.

Again... glad I'm only the grazier, I get to do flash things with free resources, or even with resources that appreciate pay monthly. Subsidises our desire to keep pet cows

 

[Kiwi Pete]

The funny thing with Cindy and co is you probably right but you have it the wrong way round.....helicopters and flying are “good” it will be keeping the wheelbarrow will be the problem

We'll be that poor in a decade we'll be fighting over who gets to carry the rich tourists from the airport

 

[som farmer]

Went through a large seed cleaning company here a few years back and I was asked where I got my grass seed which I told them and the said oh that’s good then. So I asked why they said that and they said there’s a big outfit down my way that very handy for getting rid of weedy and poor germ lines!!!
So in your info were they drilling the wheat into existing clover sward?

yes, using wheat, rather than barley or oats, as more 'upright', the other 2 could shade out the clover. All in all it was worthwhile, if annoying at times, to look back to 'how we did it in the good old days'. Sobering to think we were making large profits, using those processes. As i grow older, it becomes very obvious life is like a wheel, everything turns full circle, on this thread, we are looking to return to the practices of prior days, albeit with modern 'aids', but ag is very simple really, the basics don't change, it has made salesmen a lot of commission talking us into change though, i think we simply like complicating our lives.
But for all livestock farmers, except pigs, grass is fundamental to our survival, to try and flog seed which could be as low as 66% viable, is disgusting. Dairy farming here in the UK, went over to high yielding holstiens, just as milk quota's came in, and then we spent a fortune buy/leasing milk quota, to justify keeping those cows, and feeding for even higher yields, but not reducing cow numbers, looking back, we can see how idiotic that policy was, yet that was what we were advised to do. Today, there is a massive surge towards bringing back the pre holstien cow, and another huge surge towards production from grass. Yet the same people encouraging us to buy, and feed, huge amounts of soya etc, are now promoting production from grass, and cow milk yield, and type, is heading backwards to the 7,000 litre cow, of the 70's, or, buying increased amounts of straights, to chase even higher yields, and 24/7 housing. All this is history, and it would be scary to work out the amount of money removed from our pockets in that time, for nothing. It is no wonder the eastern european farmers were delighted to join EU, their farming systems had not advanced, a subsidy cheque was like manna from heaven to them, while to the rest, that sub was increasingly the difference between profit and loss.
Here on this thread, we have realised things have to change, to accept that, is the hardest part done, but change to what ? There are no set 'textbook' ways, so we bumble along, trying this or that, some working, others not, working on trial and error. But, it would be helpful to have some sort of 'guidance', and we rely upon what others have done, and achieved, but they don't show the 'disasters' on the way. I am going to continue browsing those old textbooks, because they were written when farming was about to enter a big profit upswing, caused, perhaps, by following those methods.

 

[som farmer]

I'm not too sure either, "not too flash at the moment" is the general word on the street.
Probably in the $4.45[ish] per kilo range at the processor so you'd have your pick of them for $1500.
I don't think the China bound incalf ones are going to fetch as much as the guys think either, apparently 90 have been pulled because farmers are sick of waiting. Glad I'm only the grazier!

Yeah I read that with interest, I guess there's been a whole heap of "progress" in agriculture since the 60's.
Silage, it was probably in its infancy in those days, so didn't need the big sugary tetraploids to feed the lactobacillus in the ensiling process, or make a dairy cow pump however many litres buys the latest Fendt

More of a focus on one grass than a range of species, they were still harvesting browntop here well into the 80s, now it doesn't take ½CWT of browntop or timothy to go a very long way!

Both in time, and 'space'. I guess the flasher everything gets, the more "we have to" drag out and put back in to feed the banks and merchants.

Again... glad I'm only the grazier, I get to do flash things with free resources, or even with resources that appreciate pay monthly. Subsidises our desire to keep pet cows

big stores are fetching the same as top finished prices, looking at the market reports, can't see mileage in that. we sold our nov born beef x calves in feb, topped at £400, can't see much mileage there either. But all stock prices are mental, why, not sure, there is either a serious shortage, or a big bubble about to burst.
Your fronterra auction has gone up for the last 7 sales, culminating in truly epic rises in the latest, up 21% on powder, your milk boys will be rubbing their hands, pity it's the end of your peak, but beginning of ours.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Philosophy is important - how big a fùckup* can we afford to make?
Because how can we learn where to head if we can no longer afford to make "learning opportunities"*?

I think that's the cycle you describe, farmers used to not understand the biological systems very well but they just went with it because the tech and chem wasn't there.

Then it was, stuff that is mechanical and rather linear in action, bingo we can understand all of that.

(We mock what we don't comprehend, it makes us feel better about not understanding)
1 ton of lime does this, so 2 tons does twice as much, simple this farming caper! Just put more on!

But as costs rise, that opportunity to educate ourself via making mistakes drops to match, fear of failure takes over and the shareholders say "no"
-"too risky"

the real risk is in settling, and not pushing, because a type of decay sets in.

One of the great things about "boom and bust" is it shows you how far you can actually bend. Or spend!
High payout years tend to cause massive harm, the money has a laxative effect and these variable costs have a funny way of turning into fixed ones - more cows, then more staff, another house for the new staff.. another bike... but as night follows day the peak comes and then the old sweaty asset thing comes around to bite.
Nobody spends $$$$ on a feeding system to have it sat there empty, or pays a man to sit in a house doing nart, so all these things become places where solar energy leaks out of the farm.

Leaving the grass longer can only do so much, eh?

 

[Henarar]

Philosophy is important - how big a fùckup* can we afford to make?
Because how can we learn where to head if we can no longer afford to make "learning opportunities"*?

I think that's the cycle you describe, farmers used to not understand the biological systems very well but they just went with it because the tech and chem wasn't there.

Then it was, stuff that is mechanical and rather linear in action, bingo we can understand all of that.

(We mock what we don't comprehend, it makes us feel better about not understanding)
1 ton of lime does this, so 2 tons does twice as much, simple this farming caper! Just put more on!

But as costs rise, that opportunity to educate ourself via making mistakes drops to match, fear of failure takes over and the shareholders say "no"
-"too risky"

the real risk is in settling, and not pushing, because a type of decay sets in.

One of the great things about "boom and bust" is it shows you how far you can actually bend. Or spend!
High payout years tend to cause massive harm, the money has a laxative effect and these variable costs have a funny way of turning into fixed ones - more cows, then more staff, another house for the new staff.. another bike... but as night follows day the peak comes and then the old sweaty asset thing comes around to bite.
Nobody spends $$$$ on a feeding system to have it sat there empty, or pays a man to sit in a house doing nart, so all these things become places where solar energy leaks out of the farm.

Leaving the grass longer can only do so much, eh?

Spot bloody on

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Spot bloody on

Thanks - I've put a lot of work in on both sides of "this coin"
Only one tube of toothpaste has much left in it, the expensive one nearly cost me the woman beside me and the wee lads in the next rooms.

I know who I should be working for

 

[Fake it ‘til you make it]

but ag is very simple really, the basics don't change, it has made salesmen a lot of commission talking us into change though, i think we simply like complicating our lives

“Ag is a simple business. It’s keeping it simple that’s the complicated part!”

 

[crashbox]

I would say double that

but I would, wouldn't I? What do you want to achieve with your acre and 65 cows "for soil health" might depend what the "weak link" or resource concern isView attachment 945680
In a dairy grazing system we found it was useful to "milk them into a small paddock" and then shift them into another one when they all got there, and then another with the fence that made the first paddock, so by lunchtime nap time they'd had a nice walk and 3 short shifts, rather than "this is your break, girls"

Like the sound of that...
What do you use for mobile corner posts for electric fence?

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

The funny thing with Cindy and co is you probably right but you have it the wrong way round.....helicopters and flying are “good” it will be keeping the wheelbarrow will be the problem

They'll need the helicopters to fly on the tree seeds fast enough to cope with offsetting the emissions from the flying tourists

 

[som farmer]

A big lesson in following your reasoning. Many years ago, i read an article about growing climbing beans with maize, one crop is energy, the other protien, sounded spot on to me, so over the years i have talked to various 'experts' agrominist etc, who have spent quite a lot of time, carefully explaining why it wouldn't work, and basically talked me out of trying some. So, looking through this weeks farmers weekly, lo and behold, an article about growing beans with maize, . We, on here, have realised the same old way, isn't working like it did, then above i said there were no textbooks about how to make those changes, well somebody has to try new ideas, so we ought to have confidence in our selves, don't get talked out of following your good ideas, by reps, they rely on selling to us, they have a vested interest in doing that.
So going back to beans and maize, trials didn't raise protien by much, but complemented each other, and as a legume, N was put back into the ground. Next problem, convincing son, and finding bean seed. Quite angry about it, as i know i should have tried it, it sounded 'right'. Anyway, a trial patch will be done, results, good or bad, i will post.

 

[crashbox]

A big lesson in following your reasoning. Many years ago, i read an article about growing climbing beans with maize, one crop is energy, the other protien, sounded spot on to me, so over the years i have talked to various 'experts' agrominist etc, who have spent quite a lot of time, carefully explaining why it wouldn't work, and basically talked me out of trying some. So, looking through this weeks farmers weekly, lo and behold, an article about growing beans with maize, . We, on here, have realised the same old way, isn't working like it did, then above i said there were no textbooks about how to make those changes, well somebody has to try new ideas, so we ought to have confidence in our selves, don't get talked out of following your good ideas, by reps, they rely on selling to us, they have a vested interest in doing that.
So going back to beans and maize, trials didn't raise protien by much, but complemented each other, and as a legume, N was put back into the ground. Next problem, convincing son, and finding bean seed. Quite angry about it, as i know i should have tried it, it sounded 'right'. Anyway, a trial patch will be done, results, good or bad, i will post.

Not sure this wil make you feel any better but seen this as common practice in sub-saharan Africa, inter-row sowing of beans and maize for human consumption. All done by hand.

In a UK setting, not sure what the drill would look like?

 

[som farmer]

Not sure this wil make you feel any better but seen this as common practice in sub-saharan Africa, inter-row sowing of beans and maize for human consumption. All done by hand.

In a UK setting, not sure what the drill would look like?

nor am i, yet.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Not sure this wil make you feel any better but seen this as common practice in sub-saharan Africa, inter-row sowing of beans and maize for human consumption. All done by hand.

In a UK setting, not sure what the drill would look like?

Maybe back to a traditional precision drill with a seed box for each row and just alternate the seed?

Not ideal as, ideally, the seed would be direct drilled into a cover crop.

 

[hendrebc]

Not sure this wil make you feel any better but seen this as common practice in sub-saharan Africa, inter-row sowing of beans and maize for human consumption. All done by hand.

In a UK setting, not sure what the drill would look like?

Was going to say the same thing. Maize, beans and pumpkin/squash made up the '3 sisters' staples of native American gardens as well.
A friend who comes from South America told me that they still grew the same there corn or maize undersown with pumpkin or squash. (possibly beans as well can't remember what he said about those) they picked the corn and left the pumpkins in the field to feed pigs. Sounded like a very good system there's loads of room under maize shame not to use it.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Like the sound of that...
What do you use for mobile corner posts for electric fence?

Just regular pigtails, usually.
I put one in to peg the hook to the ground, maybe a metre outside the lane, and one angled slightly back. Simple end assembly!

Same at the reel end if there isn't a fence to hang it on, I just make sure the handle is pointing downward and it doesn't short out on those little stubs of wire that go through the spool. If possible, I put the reels on stuff that's already been grazed out

This was in winter but it gives you the idea, they were at about a million pounds per acre here

I try to keep things straight if possible, if I need to put a bend in then I just use a couple of heavier duty pigtails together

 

[Samcowman]

big stores are fetching the same as top finished prices, looking at the market reports, can't see mileage in that. we sold our nov born beef x calves in feb, topped at £400, can't see much mileage there either. But all stock prices are mental, why, not sure, there is either a serious shortage, or a big bubble about to burst.
Your fronterra auction has gone up for the last 7 sales, culminating in truly epic rises in the latest, up 21% on powder, your milk boys will be rubbing their hands, pity it's the end of your peak, but beginning of ours.

I’d agree tried to pick up some strong stores a few weeks ago. Nothing under £2/kg and those were dairy bred Angus heifers. Took a risk on a few of them with work to do on. Should be ok as long as price doesn’t drop. Has gone slightly up last week.

A big lesson in following your reasoning. Many years ago, i read an article about growing climbing beans with maize, one crop is energy, the other protien, sounded spot on to me, so over the years i have talked to various 'experts' agrominist etc, who have spent quite a lot of time, carefully explaining why it wouldn't work, and basically talked me out of trying some. So, looking through this weeks farmers weekly, lo and behold, an article about growing beans with maize, . We, on here, have realised the same old way, isn't working like it did, then above i said there were no textbooks about how to make those changes, well somebody has to try new ideas, so we ought to have confidence in our selves, don't get talked out of following your good ideas, by reps, they rely on selling to us, they have a vested interest in doing that.
So going back to beans and maize, trials didn't raise protien by much, but complemented each other, and as a legume, N was put back into the ground. Next problem, convincing son, and finding bean seed. Quite angry about it, as i know i should have tried it, it sounded 'right'. Anyway, a trial patch will be done, results, good or bad, i will post.

Tried this last year with some beans. Unfortunately the field shouldn’t be in maize and didn’t do well. It really struggled when the weather went from really wet to baking in a fortnight. We used normal beans we combine here, trouble is I think they mature too early for planting with maize.

 

[awkward]

Not sure this wil make you feel any better but seen this as common practice in sub-saharan Africa, inter-row sowing of beans and maize for human consumption. All done by hand.

In a UK setting, not sure what the drill would look like?

Take alook at David Brandt on YouTube, a predecessor to Gabe Brown.

 

[Fenwick]

A big lesson in following your reasoning. Many years ago, i read an article about growing climbing beans with maize, one crop is energy, the other protien, sounded spot on to me, so over the years i have talked to various 'experts' agrominist etc, who have spent quite a lot of time, carefully explaining why it wouldn't work, and basically talked me out of trying some. So, looking through this weeks farmers weekly, lo and behold, an article about growing beans with maize, . We, on here, have realised the same old way, isn't working like it did, then above i said there were no textbooks about how to make those changes, well somebody has to try new ideas, so we ought to have confidence in our selves, don't get talked out of following your good ideas, by reps, they rely on selling to us, they have a vested interest in doing that.
So going back to beans and maize, trials didn't raise protien by much, but complemented each other, and as a legume, N was put back into the ground. Next problem, convincing son, and finding bean seed. Quite angry about it, as i know i should have tried it, it sounded 'right'. Anyway, a trial patch will be done, results, good or bad, i will post.

Like this? (google translate may bé needed)

Associer le maïs pour augmenter la MAT de l'ensilage

En Ille-et-Vilaine, Louis le Lièvre de la Morinière a testé une association de maïs et de lablab pour augmenter la teneur en matières azotée...

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