"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[Tyedyetom]

You're well on your way, persevere and you'll soon see.
It won't necessarily make your land drier; but 'more use when it's wet', is entirely feasibleView attachment 843761View attachment 843762
They ate the paddock in the bottom photo while I was at work, in at around 7.30 am, and out around 5 pm.
"The Carbon Sponge" ala Walter Jehne gets much more technical than I can, but basically the most effective thing you can do is increase your below-ground biomass & litter/residue, and use all the stocking pressure you can to graze as quickly as possible

What do you think you’ll do with the extra paddock available to you? How many days of grass is there?
A chap near me has been farming biologically for nearly 7-10 years said his winter housing period is nearly a week or two longer at either end of the year now his soil is functioning better, as it holds more water. I’ve only had a brief chat on the phone with him not been to see his farm yet. Does this sound right or is he being too gentle on the soil and missing out on some grazing?

 

[Tyedyetom]

You're well on your way, persevere and you'll soon see.
It won't necessarily make your land drier; but 'more use when it's wet', is entirely feasibleView attachment 843761View attachment 843762
They ate the paddock in the bottom photo while I was at work, in at around 7.30 am, and out around 5 pm.
"The Carbon Sponge" ala Walter Jehne gets much more technical than I can, but basically the most effective thing you can do is increase your below-ground biomass & litter/residue, and use all the stocking pressure you can to graze as quickly as possible

What do you think you’ll do with the extra paddock available to you? How many days of grass is there?
A chap near me has been farming biologically for nearly 7-10 years said his winter housing period is nearly a week or two longer at either end of the year now his soil is functioning better, as it holds more water. I’ve only had a brief chat on the phone with him not been to see his farm yet. Does this sound right or is he being too gentle on the soil and missing out on some grazing?

 

[Tyedyetom]

You're well on your way, persevere and you'll soon see.
It won't necessarily make your land drier; but 'more use when it's wet', is entirely feasibleView attachment 843761View attachment 843762
They ate the paddock in the bottom photo while I was at work, in at around 7.30 am, and out around 5 pm.
"The Carbon Sponge" ala Walter Jehne gets much more technical than I can, but basically the most effective thing you can do is increase your below-ground biomass & litter/residue, and use all the stocking pressure you can to graze as quickly as possible

What do you think you’ll do with the extra paddock available to you? How many days of grass is there?
A chap near me has been farming biologically for nearly 7-10 years said his winter housing period is nearly a week or two longer at either end of the year now his soil is functioning better, as it holds more water. I’ve only had a brief chat on the phone with him not been to see his farm yet. Does this sound right or is he being too gentle on the soil and missing out on some grazing?

 

[Tyedyetom]

You're well on your way, persevere and you'll soon see.
It won't necessarily make your land drier; but 'more use when it's wet', is entirely feasibleView attachment 843761View attachment 843762
They ate the paddock in the bottom photo while I was at work, in at around 7.30 am, and out around 5 pm.
"The Carbon Sponge" ala Walter Jehne gets much more technical than I can, but basically the most effective thing you can do is increase your below-ground biomass & litter/residue, and use all the stocking pressure you can to graze as quickly as possible

What do you think you’ll do with the extra paddock available to you? How many days of grass is there?
A chap near me has been farming biologically for nearly 7-10 years said his winter housing period is nearly a week or two longer at either end of the year now his soil is functioning better, as it holds more water. I’ve only had a brief chat on the phone with him not been to see his farm yet. Does this sound right or is he being too gentle on the soil and missing out on some grazing?

 

[Tyedyetom]

Didn’t mean to say this four times!

 

[Kiwi Pete]

What do you think you’ll do with the extra paddock available to you? How many days of grass is there?
A chap near me has been farming biologically for nearly 7-10 years said his winter housing period is nearly a week or two longer at either end of the year now his soil is functioning better, as it holds more water. I’ve only had a brief chat on the phone with him not been to see his farm yet. Does this sound right or is he being too gentle on the soil and missing out on some grazing?

It's really hard to say whether he's going too easy on it from here, as I've pointed out "we don't follow many rules" as to how we stock and when.

Someone with stock twice as expensive will be twice as attached to them, if you see what I mean? While we can vary our pasture demand as needed, we can also fly very close to the wire in the autumn/spring, graze much harder or with more density than someone with less control over feed demand?
Storing water is part of it, this helps summer feed production - but also infiltration and 'springiness' are as important to us, hence the very short grazing periods we use.
It shows in 5-day regrowth rates, something I make a habit is to observe what's happening 5 and 10 days behind the mob as this gives me the most relevant feedback on the past grazing strategy

Lots of info in this picture
First, recovery is too short, hence the bare soil near the gorse I'm beside..where there is a cowpat the cattle have left more grass, and it is recovering better, so they (hoggets) have grazed it too low as well. The daisies reinforce the above "recovery not long enough, over time", or they wouldn't be evident.

This relates to the first bit of your question, how many days in the extra 7 acres? I am thinking about 4.5 days, then around again, then home. 9 days will grow a lot of grass at home, but again it's more the soil that could use the rest. Our stock agent will be here to discuss selling the bulls, which could mean we're suddenly in the position that we're able to slow grazing right down, say doubling our recovery times until we load up again.

 

[Tyedyetom]

What sort of length round are you on now?
I understand it’s hard to comment if you’ve not seen the way he’s farming, just thought it was relevant to onesidale with the high rainfall they’ve had. I thought that outwintering would be more forgiving on a healthy soil which seems to be the opposite of what me neighbour was saying with housing periods

 

[Kiwi Pete]

What sort of length round are you on now?
I understand it’s hard to comment if you’ve not seen the way he’s farming, just thought it was relevant to onesidale with the high rainfall they’ve had. I thought that outwintering would be more forgiving on a healthy soil which seems to be the opposite of what me neighbour was saying with housing periods

About 20-something days this last month, we'll probably keep on grazing fast but not as low, going forward.
It may be that your neighbour has a high OM soil that's not really ticking biologically, eg the pore spaces could be filled with slurry (as an example) which would look ideal in a soil test but be "drowned" for all intents and purposes?

There's a huge difference in outcomes between, again for example, a soil that's fed a lot of plant residue and one that's fed fresh muck or slurry.
It's easy to assume that "both are organic matter" but I bet we could tell the difference in a blind taste test! I bet the soil also knows.
Adding OM can be good or bad for our water cycle...

 

[Inky]

Soil acidity is an interesting topic all of its own, but in a nutshell your soil becomes acid when there is a surplus of free H+ ions in the soil solution - this is actually how a pH is calculated/measured

Can acid grasslands change in PH if they are grazed long term with mobbed moves of cattle to create litter / dung trampling? I asked someone else recently who suggested that the acid grassland species going through the animal would mean the PH levels would roughly stay the same. I have some acid grasslands which are quite rare in these parts so wouldn't want to change the PH but would like to create more diversity through grazing.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Can acid grasslands change in PH if they are grazed long term with mobbed moves of cattle to create litter / dung trampling? I asked someone else recently who suggested that the acid grassland species going through the animal would mean the PH levels would roughly stay the same. I have some acid grasslands which are quite rare in these parts so wouldn't want to change the PH but would like to create more diversity through grazing.

It did here. When we did our original soil tests (while still working out whether we'd buy it or not) soil pH here was around 5.5 -5.8.
And now it's 6.5-6.8, all we've done is change the grazing parameters and had two "hundred year droughts" back to back ? but also gone from talking soil health (as per the last owner) to doing whatever it takes to improve our lot.
He possibly made more money but also overgrazed the place to buggery.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Can acid grasslands change in PH if they are grazed long term with mobbed moves of cattle to create litter / dung trampling? I asked someone else recently who suggested that the acid grassland species going through the animal would mean the PH levels would roughly stay the same. I have some acid grasslands which are quite rare in these parts so wouldn't want to change the PH but would like to create more diversity through grazing.

It did here. When we did our original soil tests (while still working out whether we'd buy it or not) soil pH here was around 5.5 -5.8.
And now it's 6.5-6.8, all we've done is change the grazing parameters and had two "hundred year droughts" back to back ? but also gone from talking soil health (as per the last owner) to doing whatever it takes to improve our lot.
He possibly made more money but also overgrazed the place to buggery, and at times facilitated this by using a bit of liquid N with his spring seaweed.
We use infinitely more electric fence than he

 

[Tyedyetom]

It did here. When we did our original soil tests (while still working out whether we'd buy it or not) soil pH here was around 5.5 -5.8.
And now it's 6.5-6.8, all we've done is change the grazing parameters and had two "hundred year droughts" back to back [emoji51] but also gone from talking soil health (as per the last owner) to doing whatever it takes to improve our lot.
He possibly made more money but also overgrazed the place to buggery, and at times facilitated this by using a bit of liquid N with his spring seaweed.
We use infinitely more electric fence than he

How long did it take to change the ph that much? Have you done anything else other than fence, water and stock? Any compost tea or similar?

 

[texas pete]

It's really hard to say whether he's going too easy on it from here, as I've pointed out "we don't follow many rules" as to how we stock and when.

Someone with stock twice as expensive will be twice as attached to them, if you see what I mean? While we can vary our pasture demand as needed, we can also fly very close to the wire in the autumn/spring, graze much harder or with more density than someone with less control over feed demand?
Storing water is part of it, this helps summer feed production - but also infiltration and 'springiness' are as important to us, hence the very short grazing periods we use.
It shows in 5-day regrowth rates, something I make a habit is to observe what's happening 5 and 10 days behind the mob as this gives me the most relevant feedback on the past grazing strategyView attachment 843768
Lots of info in this picture
First, recovery is too short, hence the bare soil near the gorse I'm beside..where there is a cowpat the cattle have left more grass, and it is recovering better, so they (hoggets) have grazed it too low as well. The daisies reinforce the above "recovery not long enough, over time", or they wouldn't be evident.

This relates to the first bit of your question, how many days in the extra 7 acres? I am thinking about 4.5 days, then around again, then home. 9 days will grow a lot of grass at home, but again it's more the soil that could use the rest. Our stock agent will be here to discuss selling the bulls, which could mean we're suddenly in the position that we're able to slow grazing right down, say doubling our recovery times until we load up again.

If your Bulls are going and hoggets heading home too, how will you maintain your grazing intensity?

The meat job is still fairly hot at present (at least in your part of the world) is it not?

 

[Fenwick]

It did here. When we did our original soil tests (while still working out whether we'd buy it or not) soil pH here was around 5.5 -5.8.
And now it's 6.5-6.8, all we've done is change the grazing parameters and had two "hundred year droughts" back to back ? but also gone from talking soil health (as per the last owner) to doing whatever it takes to improve our lot.
He possibly made more money but also overgrazed the place to buggery.

We don't do much soil testing. 20 years ago we also had a PH test done which read 5.7 same paddock is now 6.4. We have never limed. 20 years ago all the poisoning stopped. Since 2000 the land has mostly been grazed, though once or twice we have taken a cereal crop.
Our dodgy grazing plan was 2 week rotations (which here, back then, was considered far out!) That has all changed this year .

I have doubts about the accuracy of soil tests. But a P.H. jump of 0.7 is significant.

Don't worm castings have a neutral PH? Certainly have plenty more of them.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

How long did it take to change the ph that much? Have you done anything else other than fence, water and stock? Any compost tea or similar?

That's over 2 years, it seemed to settle about there in subsequent tests, around 5.8-5.9 everywhere last winter.

No inputs to speak of, less if anything; as above the last chap used liquid seaweed twice a year, I've used it once in 3.3 years.
He wormed his animals routinely, we don't at all.

The years are flying by since the last lime application, close to 20 years without it, and close to 30 since the last shot of superphosphate (the hard yards were done, hence the appeal to get a clean farm). You do notice the incremental changes eg the pasture's diversity is increasing as they age, which is possibly due to less dominance of "the new grass" but also by making the farm bigger (by making the grazed area smaller) as he'd have 5 mobs in 17 paddocks, we have one mob and about 150 temporary paddocks

 

[Kiwi Pete]

If your Bulls are going and hoggets heading home too, how will you maintain your grazing intensity?

The meat job is still fairly hot at present (at least in your part of the world) is it not?

Yes. Beef is at record high prices, we're talking about $6/kg for beef at the moment, and sheep look really positive too.
So we won't be buying much, may as well use other people's expensive stock to graze our cheap grass IMO . It makes people keener to keep more stock on and pay for grazing, than when things are depressed

 

[Kiwi Pete]

We don't do much soil testing. 20 years ago we also had a PH test done which read 5.7 same paddock is now 6.4. We have never limed. 20 years ago all the poisoning stopped. Since 2000 the land has mostly been grazed, though once or twice we have taken a cereal crop.
Our dodgy grazing plan was 2 week rotations (which here, back then, was considered far out!) That has all changed this year .

I have doubts about the accuracy of soil tests. But a P.H. jump of 0.7 is significant.

Don't worm castings have a neutral PH? Certainly have plenty more of them.

Yes, worms are the missing link in soil balancing.
How many are you finding in a spade-width cube?
(It does vary/cycle)
Poisoning worms in your stock is hardly going to help the earthworms do their job, is it?

It probably sounds "hippy", but when you begin to have "enemies" on your landscape and mean to do them harm, then all life seems to know your intent and sulk.
Certainly plants have communication, it's why I no longer heel-out or grub my thistles etc - just because I don't know what they're doing doesn't give me reason to stop them doing it

 

[texas pete]

Yes. Beef is at record high prices, we're talking about $6/kg for beef at the moment, and sheep look really positive too.
So we won't be buying much, may as well use other people's expensive stock to graze our cheap grass IMO . It makes people keener to keep more stock on and pay for grazing, than when things are depressed

Makes perfect sense.

I didn't think you'd be rushing to open the chequebook...

You're also increasing your numbers with your breeding heifers for the best part of fuk all, which will be my plan one day...

I've adopted the same policy at present. I have a mate who needs grass, I have grass, I have owned no stock since Feb. Partly because I don't want to be in a situation where I am a forced seller, if the market is wrong, I still think store stock is way overpriced too... It's win win, he can neither manage grazing, nor work a calculator, they come here lean and leave in much better condition and I still think he struggles to work out why.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Makes perfect sense.

I didn't think you'd be rushing to open the chequebook...

You're also increasing your numbers with your breeding heifers for the best part of fuk all, which will be my plan one day...

I've adopted the same policy at present. I have a mate who needs grass, I have grass, I have owned no stock since Feb. Partly because I don't want to be in a situation where I am a forced seller, if the market is wrong, I still think store stock is way overpriced too... It's win win, he can neither manage grazing, nor work a calculator, they come here lean and leave in much better condition and I still think he struggles to work out why.

I'm reasonably interested in buying some heifers at the right price but it's a seller's market
So we'll aim to milk the sellers for the forseeable, grazing expenses do more for a farm than paying more tax

 

[Inky]

It did here. When we did our original soil tests (while still working out whether we'd buy it or not) soil pH here was around 5.5 -5.8.
And now it's 6.5-6.8, all we've done is change the grazing parameters and had two "hundred year droughts" back to back [emoji51] but also gone from talking soil health (as per the last owner) to doing whatever it takes to improve our lot.
He possibly made more money but also overgrazed the place to buggery, and at times facilitated this by using a bit of liquid N with his spring seaweed.
We use infinitely more electric fence than he

Might have to stick to set stocking to preserve its designation. It had been extensively grazed for a few hundred years up until BSE in 96'.

Talking of worms being the missing link, i was borrowing some tools off our golf club and noted they had a water butt brewing a liquid. They spray sulphur based products mixed with water on the greens to irritate the worms and stop their activity (worm casts smear when the greens are cut).