"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[som farmer]

Dirty water / FYM in the Autumn, close out fields in Autumn for early bite in the spring, giving them plenty of rest.

Little problem there, we won't be allowed to spread fym, or, dirty water, in the autumn unless you can show crop need, which you cant, there is a question mark over dirty water, and we must hope, someone sees sense, otherwise, we are really in the shite ! There is strong talk, that we will have to fit meters, on our dirty water pumps, so we/they can calculate how much goes on, and to justify that amount.
The biggest problem with that, is it actually look like a sensible thing to do, practically not very sensible, but the people who decide, are not farmers, and do not understand the difficulties.
As for fert, in spring, you are right, and we will leave grass to graze, come spring, some habits die hard, and a cold march wind, can easily remove that grass, as l have seen, many times.
One plus of being in an NVZ, it does make you realise the value of muck, which for many, has been treated as a necessary 'evil' , another chore to do.

Out of all the changes we have made, which are a lot, it is spring growth which worries me the most, perhaps not quite weaned of chemicals sufficiently, to take that leap of faith. Next spring will tell, there is 5 ton ish, in the shed, and unless it comes down, significantly, there wont be any more arriving.
We are entering a new phase, in farming, and it can be intimidating, at the same time, as being exciting, and old habits die hard, so forgive my views on spring fert !

 

[som farmer]

The first response to shortage SHOULD be to stop as much wastage as possible.

Restaraunts waste huge amounts (see how much is left on many folks plates when the table is cleared).

Shops waste quite a bit (I've seen a whole shelf of double cream on the "cheap shelf" several times recently, about to go out of date)

Supermarket specs cause lots of produce to be "graded out" and composted or ploughed back in.

it's criminal the wastage, but it is stupid regs, that cause a lot of it, sell by, and use by dates, mislead people. Non perfect veg, is rejected by s/mkts; l believe acres of caulies have been ploughed in, for being to 'big'. It would help, if pigs were allowed to eat it, but not allowed.
Less waste, should follow more expensive food costs, or at least it should. Food is cheap, and is not treated as a valuable 'thing', but we live in a throw away culture, whether that will alter, as prices creep up, remains to be seen.
You are spot on, not much goes out from our house, but, peoples views need to be changed, and that starts at school, or school age, many parents don't care.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Little problem there, we won't be allowed to spread fym, or, dirty water, in the autumn unless you can show crop need, which you cant, there is a question mark over dirty water, and we must hope, someone sees sense, otherwise, we are really in the shite ! There is strong talk, that we will have to fit meters, on our dirty water pumps, so we/they can calculate how much goes on, and to justify that amount.
The biggest problem with that, is it actually look like a sensible thing to do, practically not very sensible, but the people who decide, are not farmers, and do not understand the difficulties.
As for fert, in spring, you are right, and we will leave grass to graze, come spring, some habits die hard, and a cold march wind, can easily remove that grass, as l have seen, many times.
One plus of being in an NVZ, it does make you realise the value of muck, which for many, has been treated as a necessary 'evil' , another chore to do.

Out of all the changes we have made, which are a lot, it is spring growth which worries me the most, perhaps not quite weaned of chemicals sufficiently, to take that leap of faith. Next spring will tell, there is 5 ton ish, in the shed, and unless it comes down, significantly, there wont be any more arriving.
We are entering a new phase, in farming, and it can be intimidating, at the same time, as being exciting, and old habits die hard, so forgive my views on spring fert !

Completely forgiven - just it's really important to get present to what's in the way, and that's personal, and it changes as you go along!

I suppose it's almost like me getting my mental health issues sorted out, for a start we tend to blame what's "outside" poking us or what happened in the past, or what the little voice in our head says -
you don't get free of the little voice until you understand "he isn't me!"
you don't get free of what's outside until you see what's inside
and, you certainly don't get much lasting benefit from working on a new character, because that character is only trying to survive and look good

it's actually incredibly easy to move because we are intrinsically very fluid and movey anyway,, but when we work out a winning formula/recipe for survival, then we think "I am this" and we get stuck there

I discovered that a big part of my character is being an 81 year old man (my late Dad) and I really can't keep that up, I think alot of agriculture is similarly rooted in the era of cheap labour and inputs, parts for everything on a shelf in the village..... and it just isn't like that anymore

now, the big thing I got out of that discovery is that there is no real fulfillment in being that way in life, the past is literally in the way of our present day and being shoved into the future everytime we think of what's ahead of us - you'll see it everywhere once it pops into your view

'all we need is a decent leader' or 'well we were all vaccinated, so get this one too' or 'if only we could go back to the good old days' or 'these barstewards are cherry-picking data, so let's do exactly the same thing back to them' - figuratively tying yourself to a stake in a field and complaining about the room service

 

[Kiwi Pete]

gave her a hand,, coz we're kind like that... all done for the year

 

[Kiwi Pete]

3 days apart

wee plants coming up, seems to have taken pretty well TBH

will graze over here

after we graze this patch out

 

[Nsoiled]

What's in the foliar spray?

Are you going to try it? (Pics. Before & after please)

Been applying a seaweed/molasses foliar spray to arable crops for the last couple of years, doing tramline trials.

Any findings on the use of these materials? What kind of rates were they going on at?
Cheers

 

[ShooTa]

You can make quite a reasonable one yourself - the key IMO is that the tip is ever-so-slightly larger diameter than the probe itself, otherwise it functions more like a moisture probe (a-la what @Farmer Roy uses at his place)

when you predominantly have soil moisture, the friction (or what dirtbikers would call stiction, referring to bike forks) doesn't really give a true feeling for what is there.

However if your probe tip is a mm or two larger than the shaft you can feel what is happening at the end, much better

for all things in life......

 

[Henarar]

still got these out not sure for how much longer, rain on the way

 

[som farmer]

everything came in last friday, cows were getting a bit tender on their feet, and just beginning to mark the ground. Some will outwinter on the kale, when we sort them out.
Nutritionist was here this morning, discussing fert price, spring grass, and grazing strategy.
She is very very anti sheep on dairy farms, over winter, drove around a few fields, me thinking what we could turn out on, her reply, get some sheep in now ! Good job we have it arranged.
She has just done a talk, re extra cost per litre of milk, with fert, fuel and conc prices now, she has calculated it 5.2ppl extra. Very few can cover that, a sobering thought, will the retailers be prepared to pay more ? Because, both processors, and farmers, are very tightly stretched, and that is before all the extra crap RT and EA want us to do, let alone the fert etc.
On the other hand, the price of milkers, has rocketed, we bought a group 10 days ago, and baulked at the price, we were told, on last weeks trade, add £150 a head.

 

[Rob Garrett]

Any findings on the use of these materials? What kind of rates were they going on at?
Cheers

It's a bit complicated!
After three years of tramline trials, with no visual crop difference what so ever & saying each year "I won't do that again", something is happening i.e. just shy of 3t/acre of pea/oat/barley (60 round bales off 8.5 acres), no bagged fert. no chems. I'm thinking that "spraying product" is a small part of a bigger picture, along with polycroping, legumes livestock & leys in the rotation, no insecticide, reduced herb/fungicide, reduced bagged N, plenty of FYM etc.

2.5 ltr/ha Hebrides seaweed extract @ £3/ltr. 5ltr/ha cane molasses £0.88/ha. Two applications p.a.

Thinking of adding:
Fulvic powder 75g/acre £1.05/acre & changing to Nutri-Tech Tri Kelp seaweed powder 75g/acre £1.43/acre. Also squirting liquid humate down the drill spout 400ml/acre £1.21/acre. I like the idea of buying powder, we get plenty of water here as it is!

Will try taking some BRIX readings before & after application, see if the snake oil is doing anything other than making me smile

 

[Samcowman]

It's a bit complicated!
After three years of tramline trials, with no visual crop difference what so ever & saying each year "I won't do that again", something is happening i.e. just shy of 3t/acre of pea/oat/barley (60 round bales off 8.5 acres), no bagged fert. no chems. I'm thinking that "spraying product" is a small part of a bigger picture, along with polycroping, legumes livestock & leys in the rotation, no insecticide, reduced herb/fungicide, reduced bagged N, plenty of FYM etc.

2.5 ltr/ha Hebrides seaweed extract @ £3/ltr. 5ltr/ha cane molasses £0.88/ha. Two applications p.a.

Thinking of adding:
Fulvic powder 75g/acre £1.05/acre & changing to Nutri-Tech Tri Kelp seaweed powder 75g/acre £1.43/acre. Also squirting liquid humate down the drill spout 400ml/acre £1.21/acre. I like the idea of buying powder, we get plenty of water here as it is!

Will try taking some BRIX readings before & after application, see if the snake oil is doing anything other than making me smile

Consider yourself bookmarked
With your tramline trials what were your comparisons with the muck and mystery products?

 

[som farmer]

It's a bit complicated!
After three years of tramline trials, with no visual crop difference what so ever & saying each year "I won't do that again", something is happening i.e. just shy of 3t/acre of pea/oat/barley (60 round bales off 8.5 acres), no bagged fert. no chems. I'm thinking that "spraying product" is a small part of a bigger picture, along with polycroping, legumes livestock & leys in the rotation, no insecticide, reduced herb/fungicide, reduced bagged N, plenty of FYM etc.

2.5 ltr/ha Hebrides seaweed extract @ £3/ltr. 5ltr/ha cane molasses £0.88/ha. Two applications p.a.

Thinking of adding:
Fulvic powder 75g/acre £1.05/acre & changing to Nutri-Tech Tri Kelp seaweed powder 75g/acre £1.43/acre. Also squirting liquid humate down the drill spout 400ml/acre £1.21/acre. I like the idea of buying powder, we get plenty of water here as it is!

Will try taking some BRIX readings before & after application, see if the snake oil is doing anything other than making me smile

l wonder how many 'normal' farmers, reading your post, would think you are a prime candidate, for the men in white coats, and to be fair, it looks 'funny', to say the least !
But we are discovering so much more, about how, soil, plants, fungi etc, interact, with each other, and only scratching the surface, nothing really surprises me anymore.
And it is right to try these things, if you don't try, you will never know, some will, some won't, and it is just as important, to say what doesn't work, as saying what does.

We have to have a rethink, on how we farm, chemical fixes have been the norm, for decades, have a problem, reach for the chemical, to cure it. Even without climate change, many commonly used 'chemicals', have been withdrawn, because of the dangers of using them.
In many ways, we are fortunate to be looking at 'regen' farming methods, while we can still use a chemical medicine, if things go wrong, that medicine cupboard, is shrinking, and perhaps those moving that way, in 10 yrs time, probably will be unable to 'treat' the disasters !

This is the beginning of a journey, where the end, will be very different, to the beginning, farming wise, many hard and fast methods, will change/disappear, and it's not easy. My great 'fear', is no grass in the spring, we looked at a lot of leys today, estimating clover etc, we think we are running at 25 - 30% clover, in the grazing leys, plenty of grass, to much, to allow for early bite, and then, 'you will have to put some N on, for 1st bite, and cut'. Very re-assuring, not.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Exactly, we just don't know what we don't know

I've often heard that "snake oil" or homeopathy can't possibly "work" because there isn't enough product going into the system it's being applied to - usually by folk who are buying in truckloads of stuff every year and still holding out their hands for assistance...

(I would say their whole farming entity isn't really working either, but that would be mean, and I love idiots just as much as experts)

the real kicker (again, sorry to be a stuck record) is whether you see a possibility that something can work or not, you largely decide at that point whether to stick with what you already do to survive/look good, or you invent a new possibility

I had a fair idea that in our system, it wasn't going to blow the doors out of the back of the bank or suddenly transform how the grass grows, but I also knew it wasn't going to become a spending habit.. as it turned out, I'd put sea-sh!t or humate on again if I could easily apply it to the land, but it's easier for us now to just put things in the water system

 

[Rob Garrett]

Consider yourself bookmarked
With your tramline trials what were your comparisons with the muck and mystery products?

Likewise, your well ahead of me with the cattle grazing/planning etc.

The tramline trials i.e switch sprayer off for one tramline, preferably in front of gateway, show no visual difference to the treated crop, hence wanting to do BRIX test in spring. Could be a total waste of time & money or have I been trying to measure the wrong things with the wrong tools (eyes) over the wrong time scale? Might just have been a good year!

 

[Rob Garrett]

l wonder how many 'normal' farmers, reading your post, would think you are a prime candidate, for the men in white coats, and to be fair, it looks 'funny', to say the least !
But we are discovering so much more, about how, soil, plants, fungi etc, interact, with each other, and only scratching the surface, nothing really surprises me anymore.
And it is right to try these things, if you don't try, you will never know, some will, some won't, and it is just as important, to say what doesn't work, as saying what does.

We have to have a rethink, on how we farm, chemical fixes have been the norm, for decades, have a problem, reach for the chemical, to cure it. Even without climate change, many commonly used 'chemicals', have been withdrawn, because of the dangers of using them.
In many ways, we are fortunate to be looking at 'regen' farming methods, while we can still use a chemical medicine, if things go wrong, that medicine cupboard, is shrinking, and perhaps those moving that way, in 10 yrs time, probably will be unable to 'treat' the disasters !

This is the beginning of a journey, where the end, will be very different, to the beginning, farming wise, many hard and fast methods, will change/disappear, and it's not easy. My great 'fear', is no grass in the spring, we looked at a lot of leys today, estimating clover etc, we think we are running at 25 - 30% clover, in the grazing leys, plenty of grass, to much, to allow for early bite, and then, 'you will have to put some N on, for 1st bite, and cut'. Very re-assuring, not.

Have you tried just drifting your keep sheep over it, don't hit it too hard, just take off the soft stuff & leave some cover for the clover? I do similar for an organic dairy lad nextdoor, a real pita for me (lots of fencing for not many days grazing) but we work it out at the end.

 

[som farmer]

Have you tried just drifting your keep sheep over it, don't hit it too hard, just take off the soft stuff & leave some cover for the clover? I do similar for an organic dairy lad nextdoor, a real pita for me (lots of fencing for not many days grazing) but we work it out at the end.

he cannot come in before 10th dec, and knows he has to be gone by 1st feb. No money changes hands, he knocks so much off, when we do the lagoon.
We have a similar arrangement with calves, he is one of several, chasing our calves, all willing to pay over the odds. We had a meeting today, rations, grass, no fert(?) cow condition, milk forecasts etc, we make a big effort to rear decent calves, we actually employ a lady to do them, as block, its not a long period, our nutritionist, busy snapping away, passed the comment, 'the next farm l go to, rears his calves, in a s/hole, and reckons to lose 30-40%', l will show him these, and tell him, this is what they should look like. From when l used to buy calves, ex farm, some places were appalling, and yet, some very good calves, came from a filthy hole, on 1 farm, bought them for 6 yrs ! But was chuffed to be told - if l can successfully down load photo's, on to my new laptop, l will post some.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I would rather buy seedstock from a place with reasonable mortality rates than from one of these astounding "never lose a calf" farmers, chances are they're losing their rubbish to your place

l wonder how many 'normal' farmers, reading your post, would think you are a prime candidate, for the men in white coats, and to be fair, it looks 'funny', to say the least !
But we are discovering so much more, about how, soil, plants, fungi etc, interact, with each other, and only scratching the surface, nothing really surprises me anymore.
And it is right to try these things, if you don't try, you will never know, some will, some won't, and it is just as important, to say what doesn't work, as saying what does.

We have to have a rethink, on how we farm, chemical fixes have been the norm, for decades, have a problem, reach for the chemical, to cure it. Even without climate change, many commonly used 'chemicals', have been withdrawn, because of the dangers of using them.
In many ways, we are fortunate to be looking at 'regen' farming methods, while we can still use a chemical medicine, if things go wrong, that medicine cupboard, is shrinking, and perhaps those moving that way, in 10 yrs time, probably will be unable to 'treat' the disasters !

This is the beginning of a journey, where the end, will be very different, to the beginning, farming wise, many hard and fast methods, will change/disappear, and it's not easy. My great 'fear', is no grass in the spring, we looked at a lot of leys today, estimating clover etc, we think we are running at 25 - 30% clover, in the grazing leys, plenty of grass, to much, to allow for early bite, and then, 'you will have to put some N on, for 1st bite, and cut'. Very re-assuring, not.

Good post

I personally think that regenerative is probably more about how you're being while you're doing what you do, than anything else

the saying "blinded by science" springs easily to mind but how often do we just seek to do more of the same, let habits run our lives - so we have more time to think about what we haven't got?

It's probably one of the things I love most about regenerating, just that enrollment in the possibility that way to be free of alot of "burdens" in life is easier than we think

 

[Samcowman]

Likewise, your well ahead of me with the cattle grazing/planning etc.

The tramline trials i.e switch sprayer off for one tramline, preferably in front of gateway, show no visual difference to the treated crop, hence wanting to do BRIX test in spring. Could be a total waste of time & money or have I been trying to measure the wrong things with the wrong tools (eyes) over the wrong time scale? Might just have been a good year!

I suppose the initial guide would be yield of the crop then of the following crop. Then could go into soil conditions in treated vs untreated. But with bills to pay whether there is any increased yield to cover the extra cost of the inputs over doing nothing apart from shutting the gate once it’s been drilled.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I suppose the initial guide would be yield of the crop then of the following crop. Then could go into soil conditions in treated vs untreated. But with bills to pay whether there is any increased yield to cover the extra cost of the inputs over doing nothing apart from shutting the gate once it’s been drilled.

It's always hard to assess "what done what" even when you run a relatively simple trial, with a control

eg I think a lot of microbials and even polyculture, if it increases health or has more beneficials or WHY, just because "you didn't do it there" doesn't mean increased health or beneficials can't spill outwards, in fact it's logical that it will spill outwards (cascading or compounding effects) into the whole farm or field

I could say my homebrew seaweed stuff turned our business from being one that lost $1000/ha in its first year to one that makes $1500/ha now, and we'd know it wasn't the stuff I sprayed on that did all that

actually wanting to stop doing farming made most of that possible, not feeling obliged to increase production means we now have too much at times

 

[Nsoiled]

It's a bit complicated!
After three years of tramline trials, with no visual crop difference what so ever & saying each year "I won't do that again", something is happening i.e. just shy of 3t/acre of pea/oat/barley (60 round bales off 8.5 acres), no bagged fert. no chems. I'm thinking that "spraying product" is a small part of a bigger picture, along with polycroping, legumes livestock & leys in the rotation, no insecticide, reduced herb/fungicide, reduced bagged N, plenty of FYM etc.

2.5 ltr/ha Hebrides seaweed extract @ £3/ltr. 5ltr/ha cane molasses £0.88/ha. Two applications p.a.

Thinking of adding:
Fulvic powder 75g/acre £1.05/acre & changing to Nutri-Tech Tri Kelp seaweed powder 75g/acre £1.43/acre. Also squirting liquid humate down the drill spout 400ml/acre £1.21/acre. I like the idea of buying powder, we get plenty of water here as it is!

Will try taking some BRIX readings before & after application, see if the snake oil is doing anything other than making me smile

Thanks for this Rob.
I'm with you and most of this thinking especially around trying to identify efficacy.
Though it has to be said that just looking at a yield difference, for example doesn't necessarily represent negative side effects beyond the growth response.
However, we do definitely need some metrics that show plant response or below ground response.
So in this case Brix is definitely high on the list along with plant sap analysis.
That said, I think that nutrient applications along with carbon and seaweed are indicated.
Again, probably the best identified through sap analysis. Things like manganese and magnesium sulfate as well as iron for example.
I also like the idea of testing for fat content of the cereal plants as a way to identify plant health status.
This test is fairly reliable and affordable.
As well as that I have been sourcing seaweed liquid from Hortifeeds. Their material is 30% weight by volume to very high relative to even the NTS trikelp liquid. But the powder material that you are sourcing is probably the best overall.
May I ask what time of year you have been making your applications and are they folia applications also?
My plan is to put these same materials out with a very good quality compost or worm compost.
So applying your materials to cereal crops?