- Location
- somerset
l always think its a good job we not all alike !!Yeah, lots of variation in land types over here. Lots of variation in farmer types too.
"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..
- Thread starter Kiwi Pete
- Start date
How do you find your stockpile lasts through winter?
need our land here functioning better to actually grow it but it does seem to disappear a bit with all this wet we have had. Then maybe it just is what it is and it’s just a good base for bale grazing.
We're making use of the electric fence grants and putting laneways in on most of the inbye land and will look at using batt latch or pensagro lifters to get in multiple moves. The inbye land has really altered. Used to grow to 5 or 6 inch and go to seed. Now with this management last summer into autumn it was like ultra dense 'mowing' grass! The collars we tend to use up on the fell as we can't use electric up there so well. No more videos atm, but hopefully will in the future!
Well as previous post, the inbye land has really altered so I guess functioning better. I'm hoping over time more traditional grasses will become prevalent and hopefully won't dissappear quite so quick?
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
LolYeah, lots of variation in land types over here. Lots of variation in farmer types too.
Lots of can'ts and not enough cans to recycle?
Same here
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
That's what we found to be the case.
It went the wrong way with the "take some leave some" grazing as we ended up with far more "lower grasses" and fewer top grasses per m², and it just melted into a soup - if we could give it any time, which meant a pay cut.
Because, of course, the rotations were still ridiculously short to try and keep quality, the cart before the horse
That's where the total grazing / regen grazing showed up as the winner, everything had a lot more time without destocking or supplementation and the better grasses overtook the little stressed stuff in one year
Odd you say that, was talking to a mate today who knew someone that had 30 red deer move in, think there will be a lot of venison coming out of that place so they will get "housed" in the freezer.
Yep different farmers with different land, need to know what you haveYeah, lots of variation in land types over here. Lots of variation in farmer types too.
Do you think a lot of those lower grasses get impacted harder by the tight grazing because they are generally shallow rooted so their roots get pulled more than the grasses with better anchors? So takes them longer to recover from the extra root disturbance as well.
- Location
- somerset
in swards that have been regularity reseeded for decades, grass types must be mainly sown types. Natural grasses couldn't compete, or were even wanted, with modern grasses.
so, if you tight graze, down to the roots, the better grasses can compete v the 'weed grass'. If, on the other hand, you don't take them down 'tight', cattle graze the better grass, leave the rest, which gives the 'bad' grass a head start, over the good.
on rough/upland swards, natural grasses will persist, probably hardier than 'modern' types, and not subject to the stressesof more intensive grass.
if you want more of the natural grasses in a more intensive sward, l think they have to be sown/stitched into them. Have said before, we have free fields, that are only cut, once or twice a year, the natural grasses are coming back, after 25+ years, its a slow old job. Incidentally, yields are getting better as time passes. The accepted 'expert' view, would be to decrease to bugger-all.
deferred grazing, or foggage, as the old boys called it, is great, if you can stock it over the winter, alas, we cannot, 3 generations confirm that. But we do use deferred grazing, in the autumn, for dry cows, as part of a transition diet. Didn't happen this autumn, the grass wouldn't play ball, it kept green. Ended up moving the fence about 6 ins a day, and feeding straw/silage/mineral ration.
what doesn't work well, is feeding high yielding hols, deferred rye grass, it just won't supply enough nutrients for them. The average hol, is fine.
its really all down to management, but l firmly believe you can improve swards, by better/targeted management. And that management, will change from field to field, soil type, and what you require from it.
but the biggest drawback with the deer, very high incidence of TB in them, or as min vet said, riddled with it. To many, means more interaction with cattle .............. read our 2nd 60 day test thurs, pass = open.
so, if you tight graze, down to the roots, the better grasses can compete v the 'weed grass'. If, on the other hand, you don't take them down 'tight', cattle graze the better grass, leave the rest, which gives the 'bad' grass a head start, over the good.
on rough/upland swards, natural grasses will persist, probably hardier than 'modern' types, and not subject to the stressesof more intensive grass.
if you want more of the natural grasses in a more intensive sward, l think they have to be sown/stitched into them. Have said before, we have free fields, that are only cut, once or twice a year, the natural grasses are coming back, after 25+ years, its a slow old job. Incidentally, yields are getting better as time passes. The accepted 'expert' view, would be to decrease to bugger-all.
deferred grazing, or foggage, as the old boys called it, is great, if you can stock it over the winter, alas, we cannot, 3 generations confirm that. But we do use deferred grazing, in the autumn, for dry cows, as part of a transition diet. Didn't happen this autumn, the grass wouldn't play ball, it kept green. Ended up moving the fence about 6 ins a day, and feeding straw/silage/mineral ration.
what doesn't work well, is feeding high yielding hols, deferred rye grass, it just won't supply enough nutrients for them. The average hol, is fine.
its really all down to management, but l firmly believe you can improve swards, by better/targeted management. And that management, will change from field to field, soil type, and what you require from it.
deer populations are increasing, a herd of 30 reds, will eat a lot of grass ! Our resident roe population increased this year, but a local lad, who requires money to buy drugs, has thinned them out pretty well, he's a damn nuisance, just moved back into the area, need to watch out for tools walking.
but the biggest drawback with the deer, very high incidence of TB in them, or as min vet said, riddled with it. To many, means more interaction with cattle .............. read our 2nd 60 day test thurs, pass = open.
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
No, they thrive on tight regular grazing and to be honest with you, lax regular grazing is still just regular grazing to a pasture plant. They thicken up and don't grow tall, which in a lot of respects is great - your small water cycle is happy that the soil is covered.
But, as you note, it rapidly turns to soup and decays fast as autumn rains and frost break down the cells - it's good to tread in, but it's hardly "stockpile for winter grazing" when it's litter.
Most of our spring/summer growth will be exactly that: stemmy soil protection that lodges by itself + a seed crop, and most of the actual nutritious feed will be growing up through that duff layer (it is already).
So to get longer lasting stockpile, is it solely based on total grazing, etc regardless of grass species? Or does that style of management ( high density grazing, long recovery / rest) suit some fescues, cocksfoot and the like over ryegrasses, allowing more resilient root structure, which in turn are able to maintain the grass/ stockpile further into the winter?
apparently its fine to poach the fu.ck out of the soil with cattle but youre not allowed not plough
- Location
- somerset
root structure is perhaps more important than many realise.
one of the problems with ryegrasses, is in more intensive farming, relying on N applications, which feed the leaf, not the roots.
PRG is a good productive grass, what l am unsure about, does it develop an improved root system, with low, or no, N application.
There's still some ryegrass in those 'free' fields we get given, certainly one of those fields hasn't been reseeded for nearly 50 yrs, makes you think a bit.
but we did get our w/wheat drilled today, so, ploughing was about the only way we could do it. Time was not on our side, you can't trust the forecast, seed was in the shed, paid for, and we are reliant on it, for winter feed.
Of interest again, and could well be shot down on other threads, we have reduced the amount of maize, to 10kg/head, and feeding 15%Protein good silage, and crimped wheat, hay, plus soya and conc. Milk solids are high, yields slightly down, cows in good condition, and we started serving 21st dec, up to today we have served 90, 19 unserved, 15 of which calved dec. All of which points to correct rationing, but, you haven't enough maize in the ration ...........
the accepted norm, is not always the only way.
- Location
- somerset
if we poach our soil, overwintering cattle outside, its fecked, grass has to be reseeded, arable not so bad.apparently its fine to poach the fu.ck out of the soil with cattle but youre not allowed not plough
OM told me that, l tried and failed, told son, he tried and failed.
used to on some stone brash, but we no longer farm that ground.
perfectly happy to have cattle housed, we get a lot of slurry and fym, which can be targeted where needed. Win win.
I tried it once , out still way after Christmas, only 15 or so , saw the effects of it for about 3 yrs after , soil moved down hill considerably in that area and the soil structure was proper soured .if we poach our soil, overwintering cattle outside, its fecked, grass has to be reseeded, arable not so bad.
OM told me that, l tried and failed, told son, he tried and failed.
used to on some stone brash, but we no longer farm that ground.
perfectly happy to have cattle housed, we get a lot of slurry and fym, which can be targeted where needed. Win win.
had to plough the field to reseed and in doing so tipped the soil uphill 2 ir 3 times for a reset .
all good experience.
Fenwick
Member
- Location
- Bretagne France
apparently its fine to poach the fu.ck out of the soil with cattle but youre not allowed not plough
I'd say its probably best not to 'poach the f**k out of it'.
The trick is finding out what that actually means. Sometimes some poaching is better then none at all. Sometimes it's much, much worse.
I'd probably make a difference between poaching and puddling though.
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
I'd say both - for a start, you'd want to 'start from scratch' with your stockpile.
Most people's idea of stockpiling is to think it's the same as when they shut up a paddock for hay, a paddock "gets away" so they let it get away further and then the deterioration decides when it gets cut.
I'd suggest that's the best way to low quality and probably why anything over about 5 week recoveries gives people a bit of dampness in the bikini bottoms
But regardless nonselective grazing gives everything the same or at least similar treatment, the bigger plants make up more of a fraction of the sward than the smaller ones, but the litter is made to cycle at the beginning.
That is the challenge here where it is dry, decompostion of litter is pretty slow and tends towards oxidation (brittle) and what we leave will hang around until the wet season.
- Location
- somerset
perhaps the biggest mistake is leaving the paddock is cutting it, when you think its 'got away'.
because its not very good quality fodder, nor have you let it grow into 'proper stockpile', you missed both choices.
for us, its all about quality, so 'gone over' grass, is just a waste of resources. Nor is stockpile a good feed for milkers, and not sure we can afford it to try some, economics, unfortunate has the final say.
just like ploughing to get the wheat in, it has to go in now, not in a month or so time. Perfection but bankrupt, isn't an option. Having said that, we farm very differently, to 5/6 years ago, and for the better, perhaps we are 50% regen !
Accountant today, really scary to see the rise in input costs, fuel, elec etc, min-til and d/d, certainly saved a lot of money, as did feeding our own cereals.
but the best part of today, passed our TB test, so 'clean' again.
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
It's interesting that wheat is affordable when stockpile is not