"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[som farmer]

It's interesting that wheat is affordable when stockpile is not

however good the stockpile is, it cannot meet the nutritional value of wheat.

in an ideal, or vegan world, cows would only give enough milk to feed their calves. However, milk is a nutritious food for us, so it has become a staple food source. To harvest that, nutrition and breeding, has improved milk yield, to a point where it is treated as a nearly 'free' food.

similar reasons with wheat, its come along way from wild grasses.

its the surplus, nutrition, management and breeding has achieved, that supports humans, in such numbers, whether that is desirable or not, is now irrelevant, nature has failed, so far, to control the population.

l have seen 'grass only' milkers, they were very close to a welfare case. While spring/summer grass will allow surplus milk to be taken, autumn/winter will not.

despite the 'rewilders' claims, it is not possible to get back to the natural landscape, and feed the population. Everything is a compromise between nature and man. Regenerative farming in itself, is a misnomer, all we are doing is moving towards/backwards, to a system of farming, that aims to preserve, look after and improve our soils, that then in turn, support us.

that doesn't mean what we are trying to do, is wrong, its very positive, and definitely worth doing, and l cannot see us moving back to 'chemical' farming. Chemicals are there, to be used if necessary, judicially, and their use isn't going to stop, they are indispensable to producing bulk cheap food, which keeps people alive.

the real problem is simple, global population is to high, and wrongly distributed, but l cannot see any 'agreeable' solution to reduce it !!!

in the meantime, we will carry on with our 'compromise', and continue our quest for a more sensible way of doing it. The accounts yesterday would strongly suggest we are on the right path plus we like it.

 

[Fenwick]

l have seen 'grass only' milkers, they were very close to a welfare case. While spring/summer grass will allow surplus milk to be taken, autumn/winter will not.

Many of the most "successful" grass only milkers over here sping calve and don't milk the cows in the winter. They do things like going on skiing holidays etc.

It also eliminates the problem of muddy tracks in winter getting to and from the shed for milking.

I've go a mate who milks 35 cows and stops all winter and makes a decent living. He's not making cheese or anything clever, all is sold to the dairy on contract.

And then I know another with 200 cows and robots etc and works 80 hour weeks, falls asleep in his tractor etc.

But hey, farming still a stupid sector (sorry but it needs saying) where people are frowned upon for not getting up to milk cows each morning. Because that is what REAL farmers do.

Having time off, and a quality of life is sill frowned upon in farming. I think that is madness. Things are slowly changing with the next generation though.

Also I know plenty of grass only dairy boys (all organic) and their the cattle look great. I have a neighbor who feeds maize and concentrates and his cows look shite. Perhaps it's not the system at fault?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Many of the most "successful" grass only milkers over here sping calve and don't milk the cows in the winter. They do things like going on skiing holidays etc.

It also eliminates the problem of muddy tracks in winter getting to and from the shed for milking.

I've go a mate who milks 35 cows and stops all winter and makes a decent living. He's not making cheese or anything clever, all is sold to the dairy on contract.

And then I know another with 200 cows and robots etc and works 80 hour weeks, falls asleep in his tractor etc.

But hey, farming still a stupid sector (sorry but it needs saying) where people are frowned upon for not getting up to milk cows each morning. Because that is what REAL farmers do.

Having time off, and a quality of life is sill frowned upon in farming. I think that is madness. Things are slowly changing with the next generation though.

Also I know plenty of grass only dairy boys (all organic) and their the cattle look great. I have a neighbor who feeds maize and concentrates and his cows look shite. Perhaps it's not the system at fault?

Yes the cows look like racing bikes out of a Specialized catalogue and last 3 seasons, but it's "affordable"

I have to laugh sometimes at the lengths people will go to to have something that would happen anyway, happen any way other than the way it would happen anyway

 

[som farmer]

Many of the most "successful" grass only milkers over here sping calve and don't milk the cows in the winter. They do things like going on skiing holidays etc.

It also eliminates the problem of muddy tracks in winter getting to and from the shed for milking.

I've go a mate who milks 35 cows and stops all winter and makes a decent living. He's not making cheese or anything clever, all is sold to the dairy on contract.

And then I know another with 200 cows and robots etc and works 80 hour weeks, falls asleep in his tractor etc.

But hey, farming still a stupid sector (sorry but it needs saying) where people are frowned upon for not getting up to milk cows each morning. Because that is what REAL farmers do.

Having time off, and a quality of life is sill frowned upon in farming. I think that is madness. Things are slowly changing with the next generation though.

Also I know plenty of grass only dairy boys (all organic) and their the cattle look great. I have a neighbor who feeds maize and concentrates and his cows look shite. Perhaps it's not the system at fault?

farming is a stupid industry, no doubt about that ! But we do it, because we love it, or can't get out of it.


many have aspirations to achieve 'something' in ag, be it organic, grass only, or highest tech system. Some achieve it, but many don't, whether they lack the conviction, or money to do so. In life, people who succeed, are the ones that get remembered, might not be fair, but that's life.

we hear many 'great names' talking about regen farming, teaching the 'way' they have succeeded. They have the conviction their way is the only right way.
But as we all know, each farm is different, each field is different, and each farmer is different.

books and podcasts etc, are great for ideas, you take those ideas, and you try to work them into your ambition and system. Some will work, some you can tweak a bit, and make them work, and some will fail.

all to often we hear about those who have decided they will do XYZ according to the word of so and so, go full bore into it, and fail, because its not right for their farm, for them, and probably not financially possible for them. Too much, too quick.

farming is something that continually evolves, from previous farmers, to your brief tenure, and to future farmers. That evolution follows a constant thread, its got to stack up, and support you, and your family, otherwise you exit.

and l am perfectly sure, many of the 'great names' that teach regen, changed into overnight, they grew a system featuring them, and their aspirations, and made it work, for them. Doesn't mean it will work for all, certainly not overnight. You need to take the principles of what they do, and adapt them to your capabilities, aspirations and farm. Then they have the best chance of succeeding.

bit of a sermon tonight, but heard a sad tale this week, we do deal in milking cows sometimes, when the economics are right, and a few years ago, 5, sold a big bunch 50+ to a keen couple to start on a rented farm. But it wasn't enough for them, they moved on to a bigger farm, bought more cows, got behind with bills, and got into a real mess, with mental problems, money, paperwork, a lot of cattle not registered, and welfare issues, very sad.

there's a phrase that was drummed into me, from a very young age, you have to learn to walk, before you can run. And that is probably the most correct saying about any type of farming, you wish to do.

your farm evolves around you, and what you strife to achieve, not what someone else, or a bloody rule book dictates. It is solely down to how you interpret those principles, and make them work.

and lets face it, we all get a great buzz, when things workout correctly.

 

[Fenwick]

farming is a stupid industry, no doubt about that ! But we do it, because we love it, or can't get out of it.


many have aspirations to achieve 'something' in ag, be it organic, grass only, or highest tech system. Some achieve it, but many don't, whether they lack the conviction, or money to do so. In life, people who succeed, are the ones that get remembered, might not be fair, but that's life.

we hear many 'great names' talking about regen farming, teaching the 'way' they have succeeded. They have the conviction their way is the only right way.
But as we all know, each farm is different, each field is different, and each farmer is different.

books and podcasts etc, are great for ideas, you take those ideas, and you try to work them into your ambition and system. Some will work, some you can tweak a bit, and make them work, and some will fail.

all to often we hear about those who have decided they will do XYZ according to the word of so and so, go full bore into it, and fail, because its not right for their farm, for them, and probably not financially possible for them. Too much, too quick.

farming is something that continually evolves, from previous farmers, to your brief tenure, and to future farmers. That evolution follows a constant thread, its got to stack up, and support you, and your family, otherwise you exit.

and l am perfectly sure, many of the 'great names' that teach regen, changed into overnight, they grew a system featuring them, and their aspirations, and made it work, for them. Doesn't mean it will work for all, certainly not overnight. You need to take the principles of what they do, and adapt them to your capabilities, aspirations and farm. Then they have the best chance of succeeding.

bit of a sermon tonight, but heard a sad tale this week, we do deal in milking cows sometimes, when the economics are right, and a few years ago, 5, sold a big bunch 50+ to a keen couple to start on a rented farm. But it wasn't enough for them, they moved on to a bigger farm, bought more cows, got behind with bills, and got into a real mess, with mental problems, money, paperwork, a lot of cattle not registered, and welfare issues, very sad.

there's a phrase that was drummed into me, from a very young age, you have to learn to walk, before you can run. And that is probably the most correct saying about any type of farming, you wish to do.

your farm evolves around you, and what you strife to achieve, not what someone else, or a bloody rule book dictates. It is solely down to how you interpret those principles, and make them work.

and lets face it, we all get a great buzz, when things workout correctly.

that's a nice post. a lot of wisdom in there.

it's one of thé reasons we are trying to form a work group. where real farmers can share their expériences on real farms.

over multiple productions, across multiple soils and climate and all within France.

it's also very interesting to note that there are savory Institute certified chaps doing something in parallel. With a very différent approach to us.

 

[Jungle Bill]

that's a nice post. a lot of wisdom in there.

it's one of thé reasons we are trying to form a work group. where real farmers can share their expériences on real farms.

over multiple productions, across multiple soils and climate and all within France.

it's also very interesting to note that there are savory Institute certified chaps doing something in parallel. With a very différent approach to us.

Another good post, real farmers working together has to be the way to genuinely regenerative farming becoming the norm, which is why a group of us from all across Europe have got together to create the European Alliance for Regenerative Agriculture ( https://eara.farm/ ). The objective is both to share knowledge and to lobby on behalf of farmers to counter the agri-corporates at a government level.
50 of us, all working farmers, are currently setting the organisation up and membership will be opened up later in the spring to farmers working to regenerate their land, businesses and nature. We have already presented our plans at COP28 and the WEF in Davos and had a good reception. I will be presenting them at the Northern Roots conference https://northernroots.eu/ in Tallinn on Thursday and we plan to be at Groundswell this year.

 

[Farmer Roy]

Err, that’s just normal here

it’s what’s always happened

 

[Fenwick]

Err, that’s just normal here

it’s what’s always happened

good for you and i'm sure it was the same hère once.

 

[Jonny B88]

that's a nice post. a lot of wisdom in there.

it's one of thé reasons we are trying to form a work group. where real farmers can share their expériences on real farms.

over multiple productions, across multiple soils and climate and all within France.

it's also very interesting to note that there are savory Institute certified chaps doing something in parallel. With a very différent approach to us.

He would you say yourselves and the savory guys differ?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

A lot of practicioners of planned grazing aren't farmers

Usually within discussion groups here we have a large farmer base who are operating within the usual constraints of farming and then a few who are more focussed on "the whole thing" without many of those distractions.

This thread gives a sort-of example of that, if you go back through the pages there actually isn't much talk of how to create grazing plans and lots of talk of how something else runs the business.

I'd say the key distinction is that most of the Savory people have you be 100% responsible for everything on the land and farmers prefer not to be quite that responsible - happy to claim it when things work out, and happy to absolve themselves of responsibility when it suits them to do so.

Eg the big essays about the world's population and where it calls home, those stories have about as much relevance as what the bison used to do in a time long gone

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Bit of a cool southerly change today.

was very difficult to get a focus on ground level with the canopy waving in the wind, but
1. Fungi
2. Cryptogam cover
3. Decomposing litter
4. Fresh litter in the base
5. Tons of seed on any bare ground in the intertussock spaces

Now I don't want to jinx things too much but you'd almost 'expect' with all that seed - 95% of our land area at a guess - all that's left to do is to have some decent breezes and a couple of showers of rain to finish the job.

One farm reseeded in approx 14 months from takeover

 

[som farmer]

a while back, said about an article which said suns UV rays, 'sterilised' the top few mm of soil, if no foliage cover. Your pic, shows plenty of cover, so 'ideal' environment to germinate.

the same argument can apply to pp or old established leys, plant density is high.

now think of newer leys, drilled rather than broadcast, you create a lot of 'bare' patches, combined with modern grazing/cutting systems, could explain why leys have a duration limit, they cannot regenerate themselves, or is this bullshite ?

certainly we have found using more 'suitable' grasses, and leaving longer residuals, we have certainly extended the life of leys, compared to previous prg/w clover.

to get our required acreage for wheat, we turned over a 'dry ley mix', about 3.5acres on a mix of stone brash and sandy loam, very dry ground. The ley was at its 'allotted' time, according to the 4/5 year sales pitch. And it had been hammered by drought etc. But still perfectly 'viable', nice and thick. Shouldn't have been touched, but needs must sometimes.

the question, was the management correct, or seed mix better, or just luck, the ley would have lasted longer ? I say expert management well l would, wouldn't l.

 

[Crofter64]

View attachment 1160234
View attachment 1160235
View attachment 1160237
Bit of a cool southerly change today.View attachment 1160238was very difficult to get a focus on ground level with the canopy waving in the wind, but
1. Fungi
2. Cryptogam cover
3. Decomposing litter
4. Fresh litter in the base
5. Tons of seed on any bare ground in the intertussock spacesView attachment 1160240View attachment 1160241
Now I don't want to jinx things too much but you'd almost 'expect' with all that seed - 95% of our land area at a guess - all that's left to do is to have some decent breezes and a couple of showers of rain to finish the job.

One farm reseeded in approx 14 months from takeover

Would you consider walking the cattle through, just to push some of the seed into the ground further?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

a while back, said about an article which said suns UV rays, 'sterilised' the top few mm of soil, if no foliage cover. Your pic, shows plenty of cover, so 'ideal' environment to germinate.

the same argument can apply to pp or old established leys, plant density is high.

now think of newer leys, drilled rather than broadcast, you create a lot of 'bare' patches, combined with modern grazing/cutting systems, could explain why leys have a duration limit, they cannot regenerate themselves, or is this bullshite ?

certainly we have found using more 'suitable' grasses, and leaving longer residuals, we have certainly extended the life of leys, compared to previous prg/w clover.

to get our required acreage for wheat, we turned over a 'dry ley mix', about 3.5acres on a mix of stone brash and sandy loam, very dry ground. The ley was at its 'allotted' time, according to the 4/5 year sales pitch. And it had been hammered by drought etc. But still perfectly 'viable', nice and thick. Shouldn't have been touched, but needs must sometimes.

the question, was the management correct, or seed mix better, or just luck, the ley would have lasted longer ? I say expert management well l would, wouldn't l.

I think leys have a duration limit because they cost money and they grow fast.
And any new pasture then has that "great depression" where no amount of management makes it perform the way it did when it had all that seedling vigour, often it doesn't even perform as well as the old paddock next to it but... costs are costs

That's about the difference, this grew well too but there's no debt, no expectation that it'll produce X

Something you'd plant with the direct expectation of increased production then has to make up for the time and money it cost, but as we know cost creep is very real - yet totally hidden if we use gross margin analysis. Just as feed budgets miss more things than they show.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Would you consider walking the cattle through, just to push some of the seed into the ground further?

They'll graze at pretty much the same rate until it's hometime.

I do like the idea of it, but the practicality is really only "kinda there" with them taking a good week to cover each paddock and stockwater limiting the carrying capacity.

A lot of this grass will just lodge once it gets wet, and cover its own seed.

I think it will do better left to its own pace than if I try making things happen; soil moisture is OK at depth but dry on top, so "planting it" might result in a bit of a strike followed by lots of little plants dying of dehydration.

We've had lots of warm days in the mid 30's and so it's a bit weird seeing frost on the cars tonight

 

[som farmer]

Many of the most "successful" grass only milkers over here sping calve and don't milk the cows in the winter. They do things like going on skiing holidays etc.

It also eliminates the problem of muddy tracks in winter getting to and from the shed for milking.

I've go a mate who milks 35 cows and stops all winter and makes a decent living. He's not making cheese or anything clever, all is sold to the dairy on contract.

And then I know another with 200 cows and robots etc and works 80 hour weeks, falls asleep in his tractor etc.

But hey, farming still a stupid sector (sorry but it needs saying) where people are frowned upon for not getting up to milk cows each morning. Because that is what REAL farmers do.

Having time off, and a quality of life is sill frowned upon in farming. I think that is madness. Things are slowly changing with the next generation though.

Also I know plenty of grass only dairy boys (all organic) and their the cattle look great. I have a neighbor who feeds maize and concentrates and his cows look shite. Perhaps it's not the system at fault?

been thinking about this, 35 cows is a doddle to look after, you don't need any expensive kit, simple parlour, cheap cheap production, and not a strain on the farmer.

200 on the other hand, requires a lot of kit, decent parlour, they are a money pit. We have been just as guilty as many, pushed up to 270, labour killed that off. But each reduction, just made things easier. Combined with our simplified management, there's a lot of costs been shaved off.

goes back to ambitions, the younger you are, the easier they seem to reach. For many, as time passes, realism creeps in.

when costing out our return to milking, 07, 25 cows would have produced a sensible return, sounds silly, but virtually no investment required, tank, simple parlour, and the cows.

ambition killed off those costings, but the 8 standing abreast parlour, tank included, working £5,000. One for 25/30 cows, probably £1,000 or less.

As l get older/old!, just like @Fenwick, l know plenty of farmers running around like blue assed flies, just trying to keep on top of things, always a never ending series of problems coming at them, and for what ? nobody has really given me a sensible answer to that. The nearest truthful answer, we'd miss the milk cheque.

well of course you bloody well would, you have got to pay for all that kit you acquired, just to milk a big herd of cows . If you hadn't needed it in the first place ...........

hindsight's a wonderful thing.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

That numbers thing is an interesting one.
Down here people would say a small herd and mean 350 cows, something you could handle by yourself or delegate to a relief milker... only need a small 4wd tractor, a mower, a silage wagon.

I kinda kept that going with 750 cows, except I had a fert spreader as well.

That said I know a guy with 180 cows and, thanks to his boy Peter, 18 tractors

 

[som farmer]

That numbers thing is an interesting one.
Down here people would say a small herd and mean 350 cows, something you could handle by yourself or delegate to a relief milker... only need a small 4wd tractor, a mower, a silage wagon.

I kinda kept that going with 750 cows, except I had a fert spreader as well.

That said I know a guy with 180 cows and, thanks to his boy Peter, 18 tractors

the nearest we get to that, are the ultra spring grazing herds, with bugger all machinery, but plenty of shorts, are shorts a badge of honour ?

but the UK is a very different economy than NZ, and those grazing herds are not as easy to run, as we are led to believe, they have their fair share of 'hassle', and our milk industry wants a level supply............ spr and aut blocks sort of balance out.

the 'main' problem with UK farming, we never lost the subsidy regime, compared to NZ, so we still have the 'shiny paint syndrome', most farmers are 'getting' on a bit in age, and many started off, as l did, on max milk production, and its never really vanished. That was what was taught.

but in chasing yield, incurred costs, kit was needed, and bought. The real disaster for many dairy farmers, was the introduction of quota's. Overnight, max went to controlled, after spending all that money, on max. So a quota market appeared, sucked £millions of pounds out of dairy farmers pockets, to outside the industry, some are still paying for quota today. Ouch.

l really don't know the answer, its the hamster wheel regime, and with guv encouragement, we still try to produce more milk, more = cheaper for consumers, which guv desperately needs.

so many are just locked into that cycle, and either can't get out, or see a way they can get out. The whole system was set up, when prices were really good. Price never moved up, in real terms, to match inflation. So milking is like an ever decreasing circle, which is extremely hard to break out of.

there is a life outside of farming, or milking, 750 cows, and 1 man, just wouldn't happen here. The whole system conspires against it. However, it is us, that allowed the 'system' to evolve.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Our milk coops would love a level supply too, but they aren't paying the costs of production and they thus struggle to get much more volume than necessary for what we call "town supply" ie bottled freshmilk

Probably how it should be, same sort of deal with organic milk, they let producers down massively and now can't find organic milk despite skyrocketing demand for it, that ship has sailed.

 

[som farmer]

Our milk coops would love a level supply too, but they aren't paying the costs of production and they thus struggle to get much more volume than necessary for what we call "town supply" ie bottled freshmilk

Probably how it should be, same sort of deal with organic milk, they let producers down massively and now can't find organic milk despite skyrocketing demand for it, that ship has sailed.

what farmers here don't seem to understand, is simple economics

supply v demand

supply under demand = higher price

then most do their utmost to regain oversupply, and lower price.

the guv, retailers must think we are stupid, fall for it every time