"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[som farmer]

That matters as much as most things

It's often a pretty "sterile" environment for dairy, a cows habitat basically consisting of a wee short sward of redhot tucker and some fenceposts.

If they weren't fenced in they'd be anywhere but where they're put, probably eating "rubbish" and drinking out of shitholes they just waded through..... wonder why they do that eh

clean water is a blessing that we don't appreciate, just expect.

clean spring un chlorinated water, is a double blessing, the number of friends that ask for a glass of 'our' water, tells a story. Daughter comes in, next thing glass of water in hand.

then you see what filthy water, some poor sods have no option, but to drink, and then you think, why don't they just fence the animals out ..............

 

[Kiwi Pete]

We are not cows, they are free of human constructs

Otherwise they would keep their water clean and not stir it up so as to get nutrients and minerals out of the sediments ?

Funny how well evolved animals actually are, they drop food out of each mouthful so that the litter is taken care of.
They make the water dirty so that they don't get crook and/or have sickly calves and lambs

Then we decide to get in the middle of as much as we can feasibly get in the middle of, and state it's a very tricky thing to get right 🫨

 

[Crofter64]

water is so important, especially for dairy, or is it ?

l am pretty anal about water, growing up, and farming here, l have constantly expanded the water system, fighting a 'guerrilla' action against OM and his brother, both of whom would throw a tantrum, if the mains water bill, was to 'high', in their opinion, and to buy a trough, .

the summer before OM went, managed to get a water system, to fields above our spring fed system. I was a bit 'back handed' about doing it, the milk rose 300 litres a day, quite a success, l thought, uncle never forgave me for that, he kept bringing it up, 20+ yrs, even after we split the farm.

yes, the milk went up, affecting milk quota, which had to be bought, to cover, then the cost of metered water, add in extra conc, dairyman then, was paid per litre, l don't think it created extra profit, just extra expense.

spent a fortune, over the last 30 yrs, bore hole, pressurised system, cows don't have to walk more than 200 meters to a trough, grown it from movable troughs, to SUCCESS, all permanent troughs, made a big difference to profit ? Not really, better for cows, certainly, sense of achievment for me ? Hell yes.

then look abroad, on the extensive ranges, cows happily watered every other day, or less often in better weather for them, often drinking from muddy shite holes, we wouldn't dream of letting our cows anywhere near !

so, yes, got to be far better for animal welfare, far more satisfying for us, but not at all sure it actually creates significantly more profit. Here, we went from 4 x 120 gallon tanks, outside those in the yard, for 150 cows, plus 3 fields with access to stream. To about 28 x 500gal tanks, + a few smaller ones, but no stream access, for at peak, 270 cows. More profit was generated from those 4 troughs, than my 28.

but l wouldn't hesitate to do it all again !!!

An excellent summary of the benfits of ‘do less’ farming.

 

[Spenrigg]

welp Hope everyone has a fantastic year to come -Ive just had my DOH moment of the year -
weve been putting out licks for the sheep recently just incase etc along with salt...
found some minerals - and the sheep have gone nuts for them - clearly ive been missing the signs
ive been reading the pat colby natural sheep care - so am working up to getting a mineral sled, which was what propted me to look it out.. and now i feel like an asshole for not doing it earlier should really help - so lesson of the dfay if your restricting the chance to free graze - damn well allow some minerals.

Did you manage to find the feed grade Dolomite she prescribes, here in the UK ?

 

[Farmer Roy]

James Gordon

If your a grassland and grazing management tragic like me, these are worth a listen. These conversations are about 30 yrs ahead of Australia. Start at #1 and just keep going!

www.facebook.com

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Chilly this morning. Second line of steers have gone, top line went yesterday

Love it when a plan comes together, will put a few dollars in the bank for the boss, these cattle were approx 100kg average ahead of what he thought.
Heifers are at their calving target weight and the bulls are out, will scan them next month.

Hopefully the price holds up and we can get the fat cattle gone soon, had a pick through and got 160, left 25 to grow more.

Even had a sunshower yesterday, it laid the dust awhile and I was nearly soaked through by the time we poked the cattle on, takes around 45 minutes from coming in to leaving loaded

 

[som farmer]

Chilly this morning. Second line of steers have gone, top line went yesterdayView attachment 1165366
Love it when a plan comes together, will put a few dollars in the bank for the boss, these cattle were approx 100kg average ahead of what he thought.
Heifers are at their calving target weight and the bulls are out, will scan them next month.

Hopefully the price holds up and we can get the fat cattle gone soon, had a pick through and got 160, left 25 to grow more.

Even had a sunshower yesterday, it laid the dust awhile and I was nearly soaked through by the time we poked the cattle on, takes around 45 minutes from coming in to leaving loaded

have a gander on u'tube channel, '1880 drifters' in the USA desert

stunning country, and a very different, and looking very good, grazing management.

grazing with what nature provides, and interestingly for a system, for groups of suckler cows, not overly profitable, but l would imagine, deeply satisfying, well worth looking at.

one hears a lot about the profitability of sucklers, chap buying in calf simx cows, to increase his herd, in Scotland, again u'tube, 15 averages £2500, not sure where you can go at that price. And wants some more !

there again, store cattle prices, are amazing, neighbour took 12 bbx and aax to Frome orange market today, 26/28 months old, av £1650, topped at £1950 ! He was, shall we say, 'a bit excitable about it' !!

but it makes you wonder what the hell is happening, with the new rules on slurry storage, and the new 'environmental' subsidies. Production is going to take a big hit, which means prices should, or could increase, but can the consumer afford it ?

a roller coaster time ahead ? Certainly interesting, and a bit scary.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Yes it is very interesting as the costs tend to match the calf revenue no matter what it is, I am reasonably sure some TFFers could spend £3000 per cow if that's what they had to play with, and still be right in saying the job's f**ked.

Here with virtually no costs other than rates, my pay and a bit of insurance then it's a struggle not to be profitable, it's just a matter of not selling ourselves out (schemes etc)

 

[Henarar]

Yes it is very interesting as the costs tend to match the calf revenue no matter what it is, I am reasonably sure some TFFers could spend £3000 per cow if that's what they had to play with, and still be right in saying the job's f**ked.

Here with virtually no costs other than rates, my pay and a bit of insurance then it's a struggle not to be profitable, it's just a matter of not selling ourselves out (schemes etc)

What if the schemes didnt make any difference to what you are doing

 

[Kiwi Pete]

What if the schemes didnt make any difference to what you are doing

Then I would assume that in time the scheme will shift so that it does make a difference to what you're doing, or vice versa

Things like farm assurance are sold on their benefits and end up being work for no benefit, or the dreadful "carbon credit" stuff which will end up costing more than it pays out.

What price freedom?

 

[Rod Dumbreck]

What if the schemes didnt make any difference to what you are doing

We just joining RT and its already made a difference to the amount of paperwork and the time to fill it all in.

 

[Henarar]

We just joining RT and its already made a difference to the amount of paperwork and the time to fill it all in.

I was more thinking about SFI that paid something and is just 3 years.
I would seriously consider quitting farming before I joined RT as it is at the moment, its about the biggest snake oil con in farming they sell you a load of work just to get what everyone would have had anyway, now not being funny I don't mind work but I don't much fancy going out and buying it.

 

[Fenwick]

Here with virtually no costs other than rates, my pay and a bit of insurance then it's a struggle not to be profitable, it's just a matter of not selling ourselves out (schemes etc)

To be fair if I didn't have the cows and land to pay for I would have the same problem on 80 hectares, in fact I could just about employ someone full time and bog off on hols. half the year

I join @Henarar that if schemes coincide with what you are already doing then thats all good. And perhaps they allow you to do stuff that you couldn't anyway, but would like to do. That might be good aswell.

The only question would be what happens to your system if they are taken away.

 

[Henarar]

To be fair if I didn't have the cows and land to pay for I would have the same problem on 80 hectares, in fact I could just about employ someone full time and bog off on hols. half the year

I join @Henarar that if schemes coincide with what you are already doing then thats all good. And perhaps they allow you to do stuff that you couldn't anyway, but would like to do. That might be good aswell.

The only question would be what happens to your system if they are taken away.

So you are saying that your life is not one long holiday anyway like mine ?

 

[Rod Dumbreck]

So you are saying that your life is not one long holiday anyway like mine ?

Every moment out on the farm is a holiday, punctuated by wretched paperwork. We are only doing it to become PFL accredited and having an RT inspection seems to be the easiest route. It seems a bit arse about face, but we are winding back selling meat direct and there are a couple of nice butchers about who are going along with this. At the end of the day, its just another scheme, and I suspect joining in is no easier or more satisfying than explaining face to face how we raise our animals (look after the wildlife, ouch)

 

[som farmer]

I was more thinking about SFI that paid something and is just 3 years.
I would seriously consider quitting farming before I joined RT as it is at the moment, its about the biggest snake oil con in farming they sell you a load of work just to get what everyone would have had anyway, now not being funny I don't mind work but I don't much fancy going out and buying it.

we have to be RT, required by milk contract.

and RT will be the reason we stop milking, our buildings/parlour won't be up to their required standards, even though milk is clean, and cows are high welfare. Chuck in new slurry storage, and you are looking at a minimum spend of £500,000, to 'sort' it out for the future, and son isn't prepared to borrow that much, and that's before we sought siblings out. Who can blame him ? l most certainly don't.

nothing much, would give me as much pleasure, as telling RT, to go and feck themselves.

took 3 barreners to Salisbury today, our 2 FA and Tested, 1 young cow, £2.06kg, and £1400, the other, but old, and French, £1.46, £1100, both better than DW. 1 other cow, not ours, non FA, no VAN number, and not tested, reckon 10p/kg cheaper .......... not much different.

stores, mental, and no FA/RT or VAN no, didn't make a scrap of difference.

And some half sensible in calf suckler cows, av £1,000, some with calves +£200 ish, basically killing price and calf value. Versus £2,500.................................

@Henarar RT will become less important, if stock is short, it becomes irrelevant, buyers only use it as a stick to knock price, milk, reckon processors will do their own farm assurance, as RT becomes ever more stupid.

SFI, because of our regen tendencies, 'money for old rope', is the phrase that springs to mind, and as we are understocked, our least productive ground, could possibly bring in £950 ish/hectare..
But perhaps more importantly, it will reduce the labour required, bring an income in, and seriously improve sons social life, And that might meet the holistic side of the thread.

 

[Loadabullocks]

Thinking of spinning some red clover on permanent pasture (mostly perennial ryegrass).

Fine, I’ll admit… would be for the SFI scheme ‘maintain legumes on improved grass’

Any suggestions? This spring / autumn?
Also, ways of making it work whilst adaptive grazing? Cheers. Hope everyone is well.

 

[som farmer]

Thinking of spinning some red clover on permanent pasture (mostly perennial ryegrass).

Fine, I’ll admit… would be for the SFI scheme ‘maintain legumes on improved grass’

Any suggestions? This spring / autumn?
Also, ways of making it work whilst adaptive grazing? Cheers. Hope everyone is well.

spinning it on, don't be disappointed with the 'take', seed seems to sit there, till it thinks its ready to germinate. Yr 2 is usually a better crop.

but why not spin a mix of white red, and perhaps trefoil, def match the criteria then. Trefoil is quite hardy. Or alsike.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Thinking of spinning some red clover on permanent pasture (mostly perennial ryegrass).

Fine, I’ll admit… would be for the SFI scheme ‘maintain legumes on improved grass’

Any suggestions? This spring / autumn?
Also, ways of making it work whilst adaptive grazing? Cheers. Hope everyone is well.

Here I wouldn't really entertain spring drilling as we then have 8 or 9 months of, at best, sporadic showers . Although in the winter it could work.
It really only leaves autumn, same as red clover does itself, where you have moisture for the seed and a few weeks of good temperature for the little plant.

Subterranean clover is a good one, it seeds very early and collapses on top, basically ensuring survival even in drought.

And yes thanks, very well, living the dream!

 

[Jonny B88]

To be fair if I didn't have the cows and land to pay for I would have the same problem on 80 hectares, in fact I could just about employ someone full time and bog off on hols. half the year

I join @Henarar that if schemes coincide with what you are already doing then thats all good. And perhaps they allow you to do stuff that you couldn't anyway, but would like to do. That might be good aswell.

The only question would be what happens to your system if they are taken away.

We had a certain AA scheme contract come through the post this year and I haven’t signed up. For exactly the reasons mentioned by Pete and others above. Started out as a nice bonus on top. Then the bonus split to certain production targets.

Now its very much aiming For the intensive ‘efficiency’ model, using various metrics pulling the bonus back and asking for all your information. Very much a not in my interest scheme now.

very interested in organics though. Basically doing it now anyway, would require a audit but thats not the end of the world…..