Irish border..

[Clever Dic]

So the Irish border is now the issue. Genuinely I want enlightening, is the issue for Ireland that they dont want a hard border as due to the UK being their largest export market it will hurt their economy. ? If so isn't that tough luck and also are the UK not the largest EU customer for premium German cars. ?maybe the Irish government should have pressured the EU to give David Cameron a better deal and there would not have been a referendum.
Why also would a hard border 're start the troubles.? I am not sure I see why it would be a trigger . I thought that this had been politically settled sometime ago is there really an appetite to restart it.
Seems to smell like blackmail.

Really not got an opinion but need to know more.

 

[Henarar]

What was the border like before we were in the EU ?

 

[David6330]

Both Ireland and the UK do not want a hard border. The UK want to leave the customs union and maintain the current border arrangement (status quo). The Irish gov and the EU are saying that this can't be done. Out of the custom union = hard border and vice versa. Irish gov suggestion is to use the Irish sea as the border and NI get special status so current border is maintained. But NI won't accept this

 

[David6330]

What was the border like before we were in the EU ?

It was a hard border. Both countries don't want to revert back to those days gone by

 

[ollieN4]

What was the border like before we were in the EU ?

Ireland and UK both joined the EU on the same day back in the early 70’s. There was a hard boarder since Partition in 1922 up until the Good Friday agreement. In practical terms the boarder runs along streams, rivers and through the countryside. There were a set number of designated crossing points, many or all manned by both the UK and Irish Army, the RUC and Gardai and UK and Irish Customs. Most other roads and bridges crossing the boarder were either blocked off or blown up by the authorities to prevent unauthorised crossing. Farms, families and communities were split. Think about looking out your kitchen window, seeing some of your farm but knowing that you have to drive 10+ miles to get to it and endure maybe 30mins to 1 hour delay going both too and from while your vehicle and everyone else’s vehicles are searched and the occupants quizzed at the crossing point. In practical terms today people in the boarder area routinely live in NI and work in the Republic or visa versa and have a normal commute. Having to queue at a boarder and be quizzed and checked certainly won’t add to people’s happiness. From a business perspective there are 100’s of cross boarder haulage movements daily e.g. 1000’s of litres of milk cross daily for processing. So we’re waiting to hear how it’s all supposed to work but at the moment there appears to be nothing but contradictions and only bluster from the Brexiteers. The other issue is that the Irish boarder becomes a back door for goods from 3rd countries that can legitimately enter the UK as part of a post-brexit trade deal, are cheaper, but may not be produced to quite the same standards of quality or welfare as those mandated by the EU.

Tin hat on but this is a flavour of the practical issues that arose when we had the boarder before and which might come back again. It’s understandable how it could trigger resentment.

 

[czechmate]

So the Irish border is now the issue. Genuinely I want enlightening, is the issue for Ireland that they dont want a hard border as due to the UK being their largest export market it will hurt their economy. ? If so isn't that tough luck and also are the UK not the largest EU customer for premium German cars. ?maybe the Irish government should have pressured the EU to give David Cameron a better deal and there would not have been a referendum.
Why also would a hard border 're start the troubles.? I am not sure I see why it would be a trigger . I thought that this had been politically settled sometime ago is there really an appetite to restart it.
Seems to smell like blackmail.

Really not got an opinion but need to know more.

So real issues, rather than blackmail

 

[czechmate]

Ireland and UK both joined the EU on the same day back in the early 70’s. There was a hard boarder since Partition in 1922 up until the Good Friday agreement. In practical terms the boarder runs along streams, rivers and through the countryside. There were a set number of designated crossing points, many or all manned by both the UK and Irish Army, the RUC and Gardai and UK and Irish Customs. Most other roads and bridges crossing the boarder were either blocked off or blown up by the authorities to prevent unauthorised crossing. Farms, families and communities were split. Think about looking out your kitchen window, seeing some of your farm but knowing that you have to drive 10+ miles to get to it and endure maybe 30mins to 1 hour delay going both too and from while your vehicle and everyone else’s vehicles are searched and the occupants quizzed at the crossing point. In practical terms today people in the boarder area routinely live in NI and work in the Republic or visa versa and have a normal commute. Having to queue at a boarder and be quizzed and checked certainly won’t add to people’s happiness. From a business perspective there are 100’s of cross boarder haulage movements daily e.g. 1000’s of litres of milk cross daily for processing. So we’re waiting to hear how it’s all supposed to work but at the moment there appears to be nothing but contradictions and only bluster from the Brexiteers. The other issue is that the Irish boarder becomes a back door for goods from 3rd countries that can legitimately enter the UK as part of a post-brexit trade deal, are cheaper, but may not be produced to quite the same standards of quality or welfare as those mandated by the EU.

Tin hat on but this is a flavour of the practical issues that arose when we had the boarder before and which might come back again. It’s understandable how it could trigger resentment.

Thank you for this long post which I think gives a lot of us non Irish (north or south) a good insight

 

[Pieces_of_Eight]

The other issue is that the Irish boarder becomes a back door for goods from 3rd countries that can legitimately enter the UK as part of a post-brexit trade deal, are cheaper, but may not be produced to quite the same standards of quality or welfare as those mandated by the EU.

Tin hat on but this is a flavour of the practical issues that arose when we had the boarder before and which might come back again. It’s understandable how it could trigger resentment.

The four freedoms of the EU that currently involve the UK also includes free movement of people.

If the FMOP from the EU is to be monitored/reduced/quota'd or stopped sometime in the future, there will need to be an immigration type border where the UK meets the EU. Otherwise the Ulster border will be the back door into the UK, becoming another Calais style refugee camp.

 

[baabaa]

Ireland and UK both joined the EU on the same day back in the early 70’s. There was a hard boarder since Partition in 1922 up until the Good Friday agreement. In practical terms the boarder runs along streams, rivers and through the countryside. There were a set number of designated crossing points, many or all manned by both the UK and Irish Army, the RUC and Gardai and UK and Irish Customs. Most other roads and bridges crossing the boarder were either blocked off or blown up by the authorities to prevent unauthorised crossing. Farms, families and communities were split. Think about looking out your kitchen window, seeing some of your farm but knowing that you have to drive 10+ miles to get to it and endure maybe 30mins to 1 hour delay going both too and from while your vehicle and everyone else’s vehicles are searched and the occupants quizzed at the crossing point. In practical terms today people in the boarder area routinely live in NI and work in the Republic or visa versa and have a normal commute. Having to queue at a boarder and be quizzed and checked certainly won’t add to people’s happiness. From a business perspective there are 100’s of cross boarder haulage movements daily e.g. 1000’s of litres of milk cross daily for processing. So we’re waiting to hear how it’s all supposed to work but at the moment there appears to be nothing but contradictions and only bluster from the Brexiteers. The other issue is that the Irish boarder becomes a back door for goods from 3rd countries that can legitimately enter the UK as part of a post-brexit trade deal, are cheaper, but may not be produced to quite the same standards of quality or welfare as those mandated by the EU.

Tin hat on but this is a flavour of the practical issues that arose when we had the boarder before and which might come back again. It’s understandable how it could trigger resentment.

the accuracy of your post equates well with your spelling

 

[arcobob]

Ireland and UK both joined the EU on the same day back in the early 70’s. There was a hard boarder since Partition in 1922 up until the Good Friday agreement. In practical terms the boarder runs along streams, rivers and through the countryside. There were a set number of designated crossing points, many or all manned by both the UK and Irish Army, the RUC and Gardai and UK and Irish Customs. Most other roads and bridges crossing the boarder were either blocked off or blown up by the authorities to prevent unauthorised crossing. Farms, families and communities were split. Think about looking out your kitchen window, seeing some of your farm but knowing that you have to drive 10+ miles to get to it and endure maybe 30mins to 1 hour delay going both too and from while your vehicle and everyone else’s vehicles are searched and the occupants quizzed at the crossing point. In practical terms today people in the boarder area routinely live in NI and work in the Republic or visa versa and have a normal commute. Having to queue at a boarder and be quizzed and checked certainly won’t add to people’s happiness. From a business perspective there are 100’s of cross boarder haulage movements daily e.g. 1000’s of litres of milk cross daily for processing. So we’re waiting to hear how it’s all supposed to work but at the moment there appears to be nothing but contradictions and only bluster from the Brexiteers. The other issue is that the Irish boarder becomes a back door for goods from 3rd countries that can legitimately enter the UK as part of a post-brexit trade deal, are cheaper, but may not be produced to quite the same standards of quality or welfare as those mandated by the EU.

Tin hat on but this is a flavour of the practical issues that arose when we had the boarder before and which might come back again. It’s understandable how it could trigger resentment.

In 1922 the Irish wished for partition, or rather a rebellious minority did. They could not have known what they wished for then and I am not sure that they know what they wish for now. They have done well out of the EU and have enjoyed a soft border and lucrative free trade with the UK but do they really see their future as part of a pontentially crumbling European federal state and locked into the Euro come hell or high water? They have practically no influence on the course of their future. After we leave the EU things will be tougher for those who are left without a doubt. It is perhaps time they considered an Eirexit or pushed very hard for a free trade deal for the UK instead of stirring up trouble for themselves.

 

[Danllan]

A relevant historical fact is that the first border 'checks' and posts were set up by the ROI, against the wishes of the UK. How times change...

With regard to Irish national pride, economic pragmatism and British democratic choice for that matter, the 'new' border will look and be as near as damn it the same as the current one in all practical ways. Trusted traders will operate across that border just as they do elsewhere, both countries will have and exercise the right to stop and check / search any vehicles they suspect of being used for wrongdoing, just as the do now. Trade will carry on both ways and the border will not be in the Irish Sea, it will be at the border, just like it is now.

Technology will make spotting the 'bad guys' easier, be it facial recognition scans or increasingly accurate high speed weigh-bridges. The Republic is very unlikely to be host to a new 'Jungle' because the inhabitants would have to get to the ROI in the first place; clearly not from the UK and, of course the EU wouldn't want any internal friction to arise, would it?

 

[nivilla1982]

The issue appears to have become one of political posturing, scaremongering to an extent and some real concern.
As @Danllan says technology, trusted trader schemes etc and intelligent sharing will be the way forward.
One assumes the smugglers in bandit county are looking forward to more opportunities for more smuggling than goes on at present.

 

[ollieN4]

A relevant historical fact is that the first border 'checks' and posts were set up by the ROI, against the wishes of the UK. How times change...

With regard to Irish national pride, economic pragmatism and British democratic choice for that matter, the 'new' border will look and be as near as damn it the same as the current one in all practical ways. Trusted traders will operate across that border just as they do elsewhere, both countries will have and exercise the right to stop and check / search any vehicles they suspect of being used for wrongdoing, just as the do now. Trade will carry on both ways and the border will not be in the Irish Sea, it will be at the border, just like it is now.

Technology will make spotting the 'bad guys' easier, be it facial recognition scans or increasingly accurate high speed weigh-bridges. The Republic is very unlikely to be host to a new 'Jungle' because the inhabitants would have to get to the ROI in the first place; clearly not from the UK and, of course the EU wouldn't want any internal friction to arise, would it?

That would be the hope. Getting it agreed is the issue now

 

[ollieN4]

the accuracy of your post equates well with your spelling

Phew - glad I put my tin on[emoji1]

 

[Joe]

Good to see this getting lot of coverage in the UK media this week, it is a discussion that should have been central to the referendum but better late than never.

It is surprising though to see the well tough attitude coming out from certain sections, without really analysing the cause of concern. The issue with the border isn't really a economic one that's just the aspect that is directly impacted by the brexit outcome. Real concerns are cultural and political that are written into an agreement that took a long a painful road for the people of the north to get to. The republic government approach to date has been to tell the UK government your system has created this problem so you need come up with solutions, and these solutions needs to work within the agreements that are in place for Northern Ireland. While trade etc is always in minds eye, this works both ways and there are sectors that need Ireland as much as others were Ireland need the UK. This needs a practical solution that needs to somehow deliver the impression of status quo as cant have a border at the sea and physical barriers would not be acceptable either in reality... Tough one really and I wouldn't like to be one trying to recommend the solution...

 

[it's not over]

So real issues, rather than blackmail

Most certainly

 

[it's not over]

In 1922 the Irish wished for partition, or rather a rebellious minority did. They could not have known what they wished for then and I am not sure that they know what they wish for now. They have done well out of the EU and have enjoyed a soft border and lucrative free trade with the UK but do they really see their future as part of a pontentially crumbling European federal state and locked into the Euro come hell or high water? They have practically no influence on the course of their future. After we leave the EU things will be tougher for those who are left without a doubt. It is perhaps time they considered an Eirexit or pushed very hard for a free trade deal for the UK instead of stirring up trouble for themselves.

I don't think they wished it. It came from compromise.then came the civil war. Home rule,a form of devolution was all that was really asked for prior to ww1 and this was one of the main reasons why 70-100k irish men enrolled in the British army to fight the germans

 

[rob1]

Has anyone gone from the uk to any other country in the EU without going through customs or showing a passport? never gone across the ROI to NI border so I dont know what happens there but I sure as hell know you cant cross other borders without doing either of the above, well unless you do it when they cant be arsed to man the borders and that includes getting in and out of switzerland, it seems from where I'm standing and with my little knowledge a lot of this argument is just done for political reasons and perhaps they all need to stop and think about what might happen if they continue to play silly buggers

 

[Danllan]

Good to see this getting lot of coverage in the UK media this week, it is a discussion that should have been central to the referendum but better late than never.

It is surprising though to see the well tough attitude coming out from certain sections, without really analysing the cause of concern. The issue with the border isn't really a economic one that's just the aspect that is directly impacted by the brexit outcome. Real concerns are cultural and political that are written into an agreement that took a long a painful road for the people of the north to get to. The republic government approach to date has been to tell the UK government your system has created this problem so you need come up with solutions, and these solutions needs to work within the agreements that are in place for Northern Ireland. While trade etc is always in minds eye, this works both ways and there are sectors that need Ireland as much as others were Ireland need the UK. This needs a practical solution that needs to somehow deliver the impression of status quo as cant have a border at the sea and physical barriers would not be acceptable either in reality... Tough one really and I wouldn't like to be one trying to recommend the solution...

People and countries are all self-centred some of the time. It should have been an issue during the referendum campaign and if the Remain side hadn't been as complacent it might have been. But it wasn't, really, and it is very unlikely that it would have changed the minds of many voters anyway; those in NI who voted for Brexit knew all about it and those in the rest of the UK were most likely concerned much more about other issues.

The ROI's Government would probably do better to stop the posturing, but that is as much down to internal politics as the PM's character. As I wrote earlier a way will be found because it needs to be, and it won't appear much different to now.

 

[Joe]

People and countries are all self-centred some of the time. It should have been an issue during the referendum campaign and if the Remain side hadn't been as complacent it might have been. But it wasn't, really, and it is very unlikely that it would have changed the minds of many voters anyway; those in NI who voted for Brexit knew all about it and those in the rest of the UK were most likely concerned much more about other issues.

The ROI's Government would probably do better to stop the posturing, but that is as much down to internal politics as the PM's character. As I wrote earlier a way will be found because it needs to be, and it won't appear much different to now.

I agree with you, but not on the posturing its more the angle of reporting that gives that impression than the actual statements or demands he has made.