Is ploughing bad ?

[Two Tone]

Was that the work that teagasc did that was sponsored by Lemken?!

I know from personal experiences that dealers are crapping themselves as to the drop in conventional cultivation machinery.

 

[Grass And Grain]

I think you get more in the top but it’s very subjective. I think what you do other than the cultivation is important.
no till, straw removed every year and only replaced with tsp for 40 years is going to have lower OM than ploughing that has fym every year.
Although I will maintain that a ploughed/heavily cultivated soil is more at risk of carbon oxidised/erosion etc.

Good point about the other things you might be more inclined to do with no-till. E.g. cover crops adding OM. Maybe cultivating farmers should do more of this kind of thing. Maybe they're less likely to if their kit can't easily deal with the residues.

One thing I think is particularly attractive about DD is that a much greater area of land can be farmed by one man. So even if there were to be some kind of yield or margin hit (not saying there is), total profit can be bigger because you might be farming 2x the area.

There are people on TFF who could answer this better than me such as @Warnesworth and @ajd132
However, I’ll tell you my thoughts:
No-till will take a few years to get the soil into a state for it to fully acclimatise to what was its original state, which was probably permanent pasture which was also when it had probably was at its highest OM level and had the most Earth worms in it. These are you cultivators because they pull down the straw from the last crop and along with the roots of the last crop allow the OM to build up.
When we plough or min-till a field we smell that rich smell. In reality, this is oxidation of the OM to the atmosphere.
Yes to start with, OM will build up quickly in the surface, but will get deeper as time goes on.
The proof of this is what happens in PP that has never been ploughed. Dig down to see how far the ‘top-soil’ with all its OM goes and it will probably be as deep, if not deeper than plough depth.

Here is another thing: I now use 1/8 of the fuel I used to use when establishing a crop with a plough.This is a huge saving of CO2, but pales into insignificance compared to the CO2 I now don’t release from the soil, had I have ploughed it.

There is no reason whatsoever why you cannot continue to muck land that is DD’d.

Just remember that no where in nature, does soil naturally cultivate of plough itself.

Yes, fuel is expensive, so only moving the top 1 1/2 inches of friable high OM soil where your drill coulters run will be a lot cheaper than turning over 9" of soil, then cultivating it.

If no-till does keep a greater proportion of the OM at the top, then that will make the drilling zone even more friable. And as you say, more worms (less mechanical damage) at work dragging OM down. So all good.

Seems to be varying results from studies about OM. If the total OM does increase or not. As alluded to in an earlier post, might depend who has funded the research!!!

It's all interested stuff, and I'm sure we'll learn more as time goes on.

One thing I have always noted about no-till is when I've left an undisturbed stubble over winter, it can deal well with rain. Better than ploughed and drilled land in adjacent field. That said, if harvest traffic damage, I've also seen plenty of wheelings stood in water ( big issue sometimes). I guess the aim of a cover would be to help fix this, but maybe sometimes a tine can also help a little. Would be easier if we had the perfect amount of rain at the right time of year!

One thing for certain. Maintaining decent OM levels is good.

 

[Two Tone]

Good point about the other things you might be more inclined to do with no-till. E.g. cover crops adding OM. Maybe cultivating farmers should do more of this kind of thing. Maybe they're less likely to if their kit can't easily deal with the residues.

One thing I think is particularly attractive about DD is that a much greater area of land can be farmed by one man. So even if there were to be some kind of yield or margin hit (not saying there is), total profit can be bigger because you might be farming 2x the area.

Yes, fuel is expensive, so only moving the top 1 1/2 inches of friable high OM soil where your drill coulters run will be a lot cheaper than turning over 9" of soil, then cultivating it.

If no-till does keep a greater proportion of the OM at the top, then that will make the drilling zone even more friable. And as you say, more worms (less mechanical damage) at work dragging OM down. So all good.

Seems to be varying results from studies about OM. If the total OM does increase or not. As alluded to in an earlier post, might depend who has funded the research!!!

It's all interested stuff, and I'm sure we'll learn more as time goes on.

One thing I have always noted about no-till is when I've left an undisturbed stubble over winter, it can deal well with rain. Better than ploughed and drilled land in adjacent field. That said, if harvest traffic damage, I've also seen plenty of wheelings stood in water ( big issue sometimes). I guess the aim of a cover would be to help fix this, but maybe sometimes a tine can also help a little. Would be easier if we had the perfect amount of rain at the right time of year!

One thing for certain. Maintaining decent OM levels is good.

I have noted how well the DD’d soils cope with rainfall too. So much so, that I no longer need to use wider, low ground pressure wheels in the tramlines. This in on soils that have a high slump problem too.
I remember @Clive switching from self propelled sprayers to a trailed sprayer, because he no longer needs their low ground pressure abilities.
We’ve all seen how not disturbing the soil actually allows it to drain far better rather than turning it into a sponge.

Honestly, I wouldn’t have believed it until I tried it. I was one of the biggest DD sceptics on TFF. I’ve just about every soil type there is here and it seems to work on them all. You have got to want to make it work and there is a lot to learn and you will make mistakes. But if you can learn from them, it all becomes logical.
The biggest secret to it all is timing. Early drilling in the Autumn when soils are in there best condition soon after harvest is the key here. Because I haven’t disturbed the Blackgrass, it doesn’t grow, allowing me to cut my pre-em herbicide bill in half. When you add this benefit to the fuel, labour and steel savings, you are already there as regards the loss of BPS payments.

 

[ajd132]

I know from personal experiences that dealers are crapping themselves as to the drop in conventional cultivation machinery.

Contract farming and renting land we just cannot afford to do a tillage and ploughing system especially with bps going and machinery costs.

 

[Grass And Grain]

I have noted how well the DD’d soils cope with rainfall too. So much so, that I no longer need to use wider, low ground pressure wheels in the tramlines. This in on soils that have a high slump problem too.
I remember @Clive switching from self propelled sprayers to a trailed sprayer, because he no longer needs their low ground pressure abilities.
We’ve all seen how not disturbing the soil actually allows it to drain far better rather than turning it into a sponge.

Honestly, I wouldn’t have believed it until I tried it. I was one of the biggest DD sceptics on TFF. I’ve just about every soil type there is here and it seems to work on them all. You have got to want to make it work and there is a lot to learn and you will make mistakes. But if you can learn from them, it all becomes logical.
The biggest secret to it all is timing. Early drilling in the Autumn when soils are in there best condition soon after harvest is the key here. Because I haven’t disturbed the Blackgrass, it doesn’t grow, allowing me to cut my pre-em herbicide bill in half. When you add this benefit to the fuel, labour and steel savings, you are already there as regards the loss of BPS payments.

I'm currently watching DD in my locality with interest. Most still plough around here, with one or two starting with DD. 10m above sea level, with various soil types, and certainly some areas in the region which are prone to lying wet over winter, and in need of underdrainage. Many are probably 'buying' a bit of short term drainage capacity by using a plough. Maybe difficult to make the shift away from a plough in these circumstances (without a big drainage scheme spend). Fully get the theory/practice that DD might hopefully help this type of situation in the long run.

Suppose probably one of biggest factors which can cause water to pool over winter is if soil was worked/driller too wet. So an earlier than conventional Autumn drilling date because of DD might actually be a good thing.

We've just entered 5 years of stewardship, so rotation is now all over the place, but prior to that we were w wheat, w barley, o.s.r. w wheat, w barley, w beans. Worked well for us. Not sure how best to manage an alternative rotation if using DD. One thing I did notice on a DD farm walk was brome in w barley. Broadway star held it back in wheat, but obvs no Broadway star for barley.

Interesting. Thanks.

 

[Grass And Grain]

Contract farming and renting land we just cannot afford to do a tillage and ploughing system especially with bps going and machinery costs.

One question if I may ajd, how do you go on in first year or two of DD? I'm told the soil improves over time/years. What can be expected in first year or two? Let's presume the weather is reasonably kind and not a September deluge, can you get similar yields in year 1, or does it take a while to get into the system?

 

[ajd132]

One question if I may ajd, how do you go on in first year or two of DD? I'm told the soil improves over time/years. What can be expected in first year or two? Let's presume the weather is reasonably kind and not a September deluge, can you get similar yields in year 1, or does it take a while to get into the system?

Seems fine. I’ve lost yield on occasion but that’s more down to my own lack of knowledge than the actual system.
There is quite a lot of learned experience, often see people trying no till making really basic mistakes that half an hour of research on here could have avoided. Although I hate to say it many peoples attempts at no till seem to be incredibly half arsed, nearly like they are trying to prove themselves right!

 

[Grass And Grain]

Seems fine. I’ve lost yield on occasion but that’s more down to my own lack of knowledge than the actual system.
There is quite a lot of learned experience, often see people trying no till making really basic mistakes that half an hour of research on here could have avoided. Although I hate to say it many peoples attempts at no till seem to be incredibly half arsed, nearly like they are trying to prove themselves right!

There's a number that can make a half arsed job of their farming using any method! It isn't going to be any use is it, in year 1 puddling about in a wet November with a DD, wondering why they failed, then saying DD doesn't work.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

I'm currently watching DD in my locality with interest. Most still plough around here, with one or two starting with DD. 10m above sea level, with various soil types, and certainly some areas in the region which are prone to lying wet over winter, and in need of underdrainage. Many are probably 'buying' a bit of short term drainage capacity by using a plough. Maybe difficult to make the shift away from a plough in these circumstances (without a big drainage scheme spend). Fully get the theory/practice that DD might hopefully help this type of situation in the long run.

Suppose probably one of biggest factors which can cause water to pool over winter is if soil was worked/driller too wet. So an earlier than conventional Autumn drilling date because of DD might actually be a good thing.

We've just entered 5 years of stewardship, so rotation is now all over the place, but prior to that we were w wheat, w barley, o.s.r. w wheat, w barley, w beans. Worked well for us. Not sure how best to manage an alternative rotation if using DD. One thing I did notice on a DD farm walk was brome in w barley. Broadway star held it back in wheat, but obvs no Broadway star for barley.

Interesting. Thanks.

Brome seems to replace BG in notill.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

One question if I may ajd, how do you go on in first year or two of DD? I'm told the soil improves over time/years. What can be expected in first year or two? Let's presume the weather is reasonably kind and not a September deluge, can you get similar yields in year 1, or does it take a while to get into the system?

In my experience, the first year, the soil has only just been moved, so actually you get a free hit. Year 3 seems to be the low point where people start to question themselves.

Really, it's more about the weather, in a good growing year you get a good crop but in a difficult year, unadjusted or less functioning soils will perform less well.

 

[alomy75]

I have noted how well the DD’d soils cope with rainfall too. So much so, that I no longer need to use wider, low ground pressure wheels in the tramlines. This in on soils that have a high slump problem too.
I remember @Clive switching from self propelled sprayers to a trailed sprayer, because he no longer needs their low ground pressure abilities.
We’ve all seen how not disturbing the soil actually allows it to drain far better rather than turning it into a sponge.

Honestly, I wouldn’t have believed it until I tried it. I was one of the biggest DD sceptics on TFF. I’ve just about every soil type there is here and it seems to work on them all. You have got to want to make it work and there is a lot to learn and you will make mistakes. But if you can learn from them, it all becomes logical.
The biggest secret to it all is timing. Early drilling in the Autumn when soils are in there best condition soon after harvest is the key here. Because I haven’t disturbed the Blackgrass, it doesn’t grow, allowing me to cut my pre-em herbicide bill in half. When you add this benefit to the fuel, labour and steel savings, you are already there as regards the loss of BPS payments.

Interesting. When you say cut pre-em spend in half; are you half-rating or only treating half the fields?

 

[ajd132]

Interesting. When you say cut pre-em spend in half; are you half-rating or only treating half the fields?

Prob less stuff in the residual stack?

 

[Two Tone]

Interesting. When you say cut pre-em spend in half; are you half-rating or only treating half the fields?

Half rating them.
I discovered it by accident. I planted some wheat in the Autumn of 2020, shoved on all its full rate Pre-em of 4 litres of Crystal+ 0.2 of DFF, followed by Avadex granules. Then 3 days later Storm Alex dumped 2.7” of rain of on it which ended up at the box of the coulter trench and damaged the seed.
To avoid anything similar happening in 2021, I decided to do a half rate Pre-em of 2 litres of Crystal + 0.1 litres of DFF, but now including half rate Avadex liquid, then put the other half on Post-em. Only to find that the Pre-em had done such a good job, that the Post-em wasn’t needed.

The problem in 2020 was as much my fault as anything else. I should have drilled those heavy land fields at least a week earlier and they would have been fine. But the silver lining is that I’ve saved a busting lot of money from what I learned from it.