Islam

[Danllan]

This isn't an attack on or criticism on Islam for being a 'religion' in the general sense, because to me as a rational atheist all religions are as absurd in that regard. But I'll be interested to know the views of others about the nature of Islam itself.

Many religions have and have had 'extremists', and many of these have done barbaric things, often in the name of their given religion and, thankfully, in the rather unenlightened distant past. But with regard to Islam, things are being done in the here and now. And, for me most worryingly, not in the name of but on the literal and unambiguous instruction of the religion.

And, unlike many (most?) other religions, Islam can't be improved upon or a single dot of its scriptures altered to allow for any change in the interpretation of them. Nothing other than Islam is right, only Islam is good - these are absolutes, there is no grey or room for any other way.

I was only a few buildings away when the US embassy in Nairobi was blown up, I heard one of the 7/ 7 bombs go off in London through my open window, and I am sure many others have similar experiences they can recall. Those events, 9 / 11 and many other things since have revealed that radical Islam is a real thing globally and here in the UK.

I have proffered a question on here before, I think it should be asked of all Muslims: what would you choose radical Islam or no Islam? I have asked it of many now, certainly over a hundred. I have only had the response of 'No Islam' once, and he would not dare say it publicly - because, of course, that is a denial of Islam's perfection, and for a Muslim to do as much, under Sharia Law, amounts to apostasy and is punishable by death.

So, what do you think of Islam itself, is it by nature extreme, is it tolerant, is it a good thing, a bad thing or what...?

For myself, I can't help thinking that anything which unambiguously requires death for people publishing something as irrelevant as the cartoon below, is inherently barbaric and bad; and this isn't a criticism of it as a religion, for I would write the same about a totalitarian political movement with a similar 'law' about whatever.

 

[ollie989898]

There are extremists in all religions, Christians included. The reality being that such extremists cannot actually be true Christians/Muslims/Jews as all these faiths, in common with many others, basically forbid violence, murder or persecution.

I have worked a lot with homeless people. I have been told by several that if they ever became truly hungry they would head to the nearest fast food outlet, particularly those selling kebab/falafel/shawarma because under Islam voluntary acts of charity to those less fortunate than yourself are basically considered mandatory. I don't know if it is official policy or not but I was also told some McDonalds outlets will give food to homeless people in the area.

 

[betweenthelines]

So, is Israel bombing the sh!t out of the Muslims in Gaza because they (Israel) are Jewish and it's a Religious war?

Did KKK lynch black Americans for Religious or for Racist reasons.

The truth is people seeking power will hitch their wagon to some form of Religion and twist it for their own purposes.

 

[Danllan]

Yep... thought this would happen, pussy-footing, apologism... I'm happy to discuss other religions and their stupidity, violence etc. elsewhere, stick to Islam here.

Mentioning Israel is stupid, but predictable. Loads of Israelis are secular Jews, i.e. not religious at all - they have no qualms about hitting Gaza because it's an existential thing as far as they are concerned, territorial, resource and strategy related,superstitions are irrelevant to them,

@ollie989898 & @betweenthelines have you read the Koran and the Hadith? I have, both, several times. There is no ambiguity in them, whereas 'religious thought' - such as it is - in e.g. Christianity and Judaism has moved on from literal interpretation of their texts, Islam has not and, crucially, can not do so.

Please cite examples of extensive and frequent attacks by Christians on others that in any way mirror those by Muslims.

Please tell us why, when asked, the vast majority of Muslims in the UK - and presumably in other Western countries - think that it is right that homosexuals and apostates should be killed, and that it should be the law here.

 

[john432]

We as farmers have no place to criticise the Muslims... As long as they buy our cull ewes etc. We don't seem to give a monkey's how barbaric the barsteward's kill them...

 

[Danllan]

We as farmers have no place to criticise the Muslims... As long as they buy our cull ewes etc. We don't seem to give a monkey's how barbaric the barsteward's kill them...

You write for yourself on that. Ridiculous superstition though it is, Islam does allow for the stunning of animals, whereas Judaism does now, but we digress...

Still waiting for some honesty and facts to support their case from those who disagree with my premise.

 

[Daniel]

This isn't an attack on or criticism on Islam for being a 'religion' in the general sense, because to me as a rational atheist all religions are as absurd in that regard. But I'll be interested to know the views of others about the nature of Islam itself.

Many religions have and have had 'extremists', and many of these have done barbaric things, often in the name of their given religion and, thankfully, in the rather unenlightened distant past. But with regard to Islam, things are being done in the here and now. And, for me most worryingly, not in the name of but on the literal and unambiguous instruction of the religion.

And, unlike many (most?) other religions, Islam can't be improved upon or a single dot of its scriptures altered to allow for any change in the interpretation of them. Nothing other than Islam is right, only Islam is good - these are absolutes, there is no grey or room for any other way.

I was only a few buildings away when the US embassy in Nairobi was blown up, I heard one of the 7/ 7 bombs go off in London through my open window, and I am sure many others have similar experiences they can recall. Those events, 9 / 11 and many other things since have revealed that radical Islam is a real thing globally and here in the UK.

I have proffered a question on here before, I think it should be asked of all Muslims: what would you choose radical Islam or no Islam? I have asked it of many now, certainly over a hundred. I have only had the response of 'No Islam' once, and he would not dare say it publicly - because, of course, that is a denial of Islam's perfection, and for a Muslim to do as much, under Sharia Law, amounts to apostasy and is punishable by death.

So, what do you think of Islam itself, is it by nature extreme, is it tolerant, is it a good thing, a bad thing or what...?

For myself, I can't help thinking that anything which unambiguously requires death for people publishing something as irrelevant as the cartoon below, is inherently barbaric and bad; and this isn't a criticism of it as a religion, for I would write the same about a totalitarian political movement with a similar 'law' about whatever.


View attachment 1170774

It is by nature an intolerant religion which encourages force and subterfuge as methods for enlarging its bounds. There is also the problem that its prophet married a child without censure.

Tom Holland is also very good on the fact that nothing is recorded on the life of Mohammed until centuries after his supposed life and death. Unlike Christianity in which contemporary accounts exist of the existence of Jesus Christ.

 

[Danllan]

It is by nature an intolerant religion which encourages force and subterfuge as methods for enlarging its bounds. There is also the problem that its prophet married a child without censure.

Tom Holland is also very good on the fact that nothing is recorded on the life of Mohammed until centuries after his supposed life and death. Unlike Christianity in which contemporary accounts exist of the existence of Jesus Christ.

Can't argue with the first bit, not sure about the second - there is no known contemporary Roman account of JC... and the references in the Bible mentioning Roman censuses etc. are fictitious...

 

[Charlie Gill]

One in five Muslim prisoners is white as ‘gangs drive conversions’

Figures highlight concerns that gangs in some jails are ordering prisoners to become Muslims or face violence

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Swarfmonkey]

The reality being that such extremists cannot actually true Christians/Muslims/Jews as all these faiths, in common with many others, basically forbid violence, murder or persecution.

Well, you got two out of three right.

Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur'an
When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them
Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them

 

[ollie989898]

Yep... thought this would happen, pussy-footing, apologism... I'm happy to discuss other religions and their stupidity, violence etc. elsewhere, stick to Islam here.

Mentioning Israel is stupid, but predictable. Loads of Israelis are secular Jews, i.e. not religious at all - they have no qualms about hitting Gaza because it's an existential thing as far as they are concerned, territorial, resource and strategy related,superstitions are irrelevant to them,

@ollie989898 & @betweenthelines have you read the Koran and the Hadith? I have, both, several times. There is no ambiguity in them, whereas 'religious thought' - such as it is - in e.g. Christianity and Judaism has moved on from literal interpretation of their texts, Islam has not and, crucially, can not do so.

Please cite examples of extensive and frequent attacks by Christians on others that in any way mirror those by Muslims.

Please tell us why, when asked, the vast majority of Muslims in the UK - and presumably in other Western countries - think that it is right that homosexuals and apostates should be killed, and that it should be the law here.

I work with colleagues from all over the world and there are a real mixture of different people of varying faiths and many are from various regions of the world. Some of them are devout Muslims, or at least in my own mind I would class them as so, based on what I have learned from talking with them.

I have read the Quran in part, I have one in my desk that I am in the process of reading from time to time. I haven't read any other piece of religious scripture other than the Bible I am afraid.

I can't say from speaking with any one of the above people, of any faith how literally they would interpret any religious text in all honesty.


You need only watch some social media to realise that intolerance and hate are characteristics you might not have to travel very far to find in some countries. A rather sad facet of the human psyche I guess.

 

[ollie989898]

Well, you got two out of three right.

Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur'an
When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them
Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them

But the Bible is no different in parts. I distinctly remember that it suggests people should be stoned to death, crucified or hung according to various infringements is proscribes.

 

[Danllan]

Well, you got two out of three right.

Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur'an
When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them
Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them

As I've written elsewhere, it isn't fair to use facts against them... That aside, there is horrific language and exhortations in the Bible - Torah - but Christianity and Judaism could and so have evolved.

Please will those 'defending' Islam give us examples of the last time there was a religiously sanctioned stoning by Christians or Jews, or the enslaving of children - these are sanctioned, instructed even, in the Bible / Torah but, oddly, they just don't happen...

 

[ollie989898]

So, is Israel bombing the sh!t out of the Muslims in Gaza because they (Israel) are Jewish and it's a Religious war?

Did KKK lynch black Americans for Religious or for Racist reasons.

The truth is people seeking power will hitch their wagon to some form of Religion and twist it for their own purposes.

Unfortunately true. Religion has been used by people with ulterior motives to convince others to follow their cause or do their bidding. This is probably true of many faiths. By bringing religion into geopolitical or human conflict you can drastically increase your reach and number of followers. Hence the nature of the crusades in the middle ages- just a conflict aimed at increasing the land under the control of the Church in effect.

 

[Swarfmonkey]

But the Bible is no different in parts. I distinctly remember that it suggests people should be stoned to death, crucified or hung according to various infringements is proscribes.

Christianity and Judaism had their periods of reform, Islam has not.

 

[Danllan]

I work with colleagues from all over the world and there are a real mixture of different people of varying faiths and many are from various regions of the world. Some of them are devout Muslims, or at least in my own mind I would class them as so, based on what I have learned from talking with them.

I have read the Quran in part, I have one in my desk that I am in the process of reading from time to time. I haven't read any other piece of religious scripture other than the Bible I am afraid.

I can't say from speaking with any one of the above people, of any faith how literally they would interpret any religious text in all honesty.


You need only watch some social media to realise that intolerance and hate are characteristics you might not have to travel very far to find in some countries. A rather sad facet of the human psyche I guess.

They are almost certainly not devout Muslims, finish reading the book and then the Hadith and this will become very clear to you.

As for other religious books... ugh, they are all much the same and mostly drivel; they often steal ideas from elsewhere and claim them as their own.

I read every one I could get when I was in the Army, to relieve boredom and allow myself to argue from a position of knowledge rather than mere quoting and supposition. The Granth, Bhagavad Gita, Tibetan book of the dead, the Sutras, the book of Mormon (the most screamingly obviously stupid and worst by a country mile), the Avesta, the Druze Epistles, a few others, and of course the Bible. Oh I also read all the legends / tales about the Graeco-Roman gods, Egypt's, and the Norse, Germanic and Celtic ones too - as you may now understand, I was often really, really, really f**king bored... bear in mind this was the time before even digital MP3 players...

Edit to add: the Sutras are generally the least ridiculous.

 

[ollie989898]

Christianity and Judaism had their periods of reform, Islam has not.

I see, and how long have you been an Islamic scholar, exactly?

I have a good friend who happens to be Muslim. They do not drink alcohol, have basically forsworn all kind of stimulants (so caffeine is out) do not ever use profanity or even engage in conversation of a dubious nature. I would consider them to be the very last person who would never engage in violence and they certainly wouldn't ever engage in any of the activities I would have done at their age- clubbing, pubbing, drinking, womanising or generally acting in any way which could be considered wayward. By sheer coincidence all the people I have ever encountered behaving in a threatening manner toward me were white British people, some of whom may well have been engaging in the exact same activities I have just outlined. So you tell me: am I to assume these people pose more of a threat of violence to me than a guy who is from say Pakistan and heads to the Mosque every Friday who wouldn't even say boo to a goose?

 

[ollie989898]

They are almost certainly not devout Muslims, finish reading the book and then the Hadith and this will become very clear to you.

As for other religious books... ugh, they are all much the same and mostly drivel; they often steal ideas from elsewhere and claim them as their own.

I read every one I could get when I was in the Army, to relieve boredom and allow myself to argue from a position of knowledge rather than mere quoting and supposition. The Granth, Bhagavad Gita, Tibetan book of the dead, the Sutras, the book of Mormon (the most screamingly obviously stupid and worst by a country mile), the Avesta, the Druze Epistles, a few others, and of course the Bible. Oh I also read all the legends / tales about the Graeco-Roman gods, Egypt's, and the Norse, Germanic and Celtic ones too - as you may now understand, I was often really, really, really f**king bored... bear in mind this was the time before even digital MP3 players...

Edit to add: the Sutras are generally the least ridiculous.

I have no interest in reading shed loads of books unfortunately. I have a long list of medical texts I barely have time to read, perhaps if I wasted less time on TFF I would have time to do so.

Are there lines in the Bible that basically outline that everything that was written in the old testament was a bit wrong and should be disregarded?

 

[Swarfmonkey]

I see, and how long have you been an Islamic scholar, exactly?

I have a good friend who happens to be Muslim. They do not drink alcohol, have basically forsworn all kind of stimulants (so caffeine is out) do not ever use profanity or even engage in conversation of a dubious nature. I would consider them to be the very last person who would never engage in violence and they certainly wouldn't ever engage in any of the activities I would have done at their age- clubbing, pubbing, drinking, womanising or generally acting in any way which could be considered wayward. By sheer coincidence all the people I have ever encountered behaving in a threatening manner toward me were white British people, some of whom may well have been engaging in the exact same activities I have just outlined. So you tell me: am I to assume these people pose more of a threat of violence to me than a guy who is from say Pakistan and heads to the Mosque every Friday who wouldn't even say boo to a goose?

Had plenty of long conversations about Islam with our interpreter on my second tour. He was about as much of an ex muslim as you'd ever meet, mostly the result of being ordered by the Imam to marry off his 12 year old daughter to someone three times her age (not that the age of the husband has any real bearing on such a disgusting action).

 

[ollie989898]

Had plenty of long conversations about Islam with our interpreter on my second tour. He was about as much of an ex muslim as you'd ever meet, mostly to do with being ordered by the Imam to marry off his 12 year old daughter to someone three times her age (not that the age of the husband has any real bearing on such a disgusting action).

This is bordering on the ridiculous now.

It is fact that Several Catholic priests have been convinced of sex crimes. What point are you trying to make? Human beings are capable of doing terrible things, their particular religion is immaterial in reality.