Lamb castration in the cross hairs

[Jackov Altraids]

I believe it should be said that it is the inexperienced and those without direct knowledge that should be educated.
A few minutes of discomfort has been understood to be worthwhile while in terms of whole-life welfare forever.

This has not come from consumers.
It arises from those lobbying to get their products to be a compulsory purchase and from the idiots who say that standards must ever-increase, irrespective of the merit.

And at the same time, the tw@-known-as-supervet, puts animals through horrendous and lengthy ordeals of which the individual can have no comprehension for financial gain and ego massage. It's considered primetime entertainment.

 

[ringi]

That's a case of the tail wagging the dog. I don't think they understand the economics of commercial sheep farming. I guess a hole has been left by livestock farmers lowering antibiotic usage so it would naturally appeal to them to fill that gap with sales of nsaids.

There will be low profit in NSAIDs as they are old enough to be past any patent protection. Not having them directly licanced increases costs of vat prescriptions etc.

I would like to see a random control trail with careful measurements of "time to finished weight" to see if using NSAIDS with ringing would increase the number of lambs that can be sold fat without having to go var the store market. But it would need government funding as no company stand to make profit from the result.

 

[Tim W]

I have a lot of respect for @Tim W on many things,

Thanks

but will never agree with his approach to this.

It is promoting a problem where none exists.

You are also shooting the messenger
See the original post ---it asks when will rubber rings be banned for castration and i have pointed out the possible reasons for restrictions coming in at a future date (if they do)--- i have not argued that they are necessarily good reasons

For the record;
Tail docking i think the need could be vastly reduced or even phased out in the medium term by genetics/selection ---

Castration i think is a useful tool for the sheep farmer but it will come under increased scrutiny and we will be encouraged to reduce it & use pain relief when we do castrate --

And I like to remember that you can't hide from your distractors/enemies so i am in favour of looking at the potential hurdles the industry faces and dealing with them rather than hiding from/ignoring them ---

I also believe that there are larger welfare issues that we will have to deal with ----but i'll keep that for another thread otherwise i'll be accused of singlehandedly trying to decimate the UK lamb industry in a day

 

[Wink]

Commercial piglets haven't been castrated in decades. The industry recognised it wasn't worthwhile and adapted their genetics to overcome the challenge.

Not common but does still happen even in some of the larger "commercial" herds supplying butchers shops.

 

[Alias]

Most of our lambs go to Woodheads. They say no tup lambs after 1st week in October, and there's a reason for that, Morrisons aren't daft. A lot of people can't taste a tup lamb, but those who can wouldn't want to eat another. We bought a leg of lamb from Aldi one Easter, wife couldn't tell it was a tup, I could, it was rank.
As to the ethnic trade, yes there is a good trade for horned tups for Big Eid, and a lot of these will end up having their throats cut in back yards up and down the country for the sacrifice, but the buyers for them will certainly not want to ban castration on welfare grounds.

 

[Agrivator]

I feel sorry for anyone who can't detect the smell and taint of older tup lambs. They will obviously be missing out on all the other wonderful smells and tastes which can be appreciated by the rest of us..

 

[yellowbelly]

''In a new position statement, the British Veterinary Association (BVA) and Sheep Veterinary Association (SVS) say the absence of licensed local anaesthetic and anti-inflammatory products in the UK means efforts should be made to reduce painful husbandry procedures.''

Of course they do.....


......'cos they're the ones that stand to gain from it - who is going to sell the anaesthetics and anti inflammatories and/or do the surgical procedures?

THEY ARE.

On a similar, but unrelated note, I'd like to add that my feckin vet has just invoiced me £180 for a 20 minute visit just so I can fill in the newly required form that enables me to sell sheep in a live market

Jeeeezzz, I'm pleased that I'm a lot nearer the end of my farming career than the beginning.
Feckin rules and regulations

 

[Dead Rabbits]

Is it true that in the UK a farmer can’t administer local anesthetic? Vet only?

 

[yellowbelly]

Is it true that in the UK a farmer can’t administer local anesthetic? Vet only?

No.
Procain is available but only by perscription from a vet.

Can be bought from other sources but still need a vet prescription (which they charge for).

 

[Northeastfarmer]

I ''keep banging on about'' market forces changing demand ---that comes from a host of different places
Religious
Perceived or real welfare
Market accessibility

It's not me asking for the review- The article in the original post says Vets BVA & SVS are calling for a review and also for suitable anaesthetics to be licenced -

I'm merely commenting and trying to explain why/how it could happen.

So basically a couple of vets and a few “leading farmers”
(possibly the leading farmers are you and gecko)
are wanting a review on wether lambs need castrating or not and if they do the vets will sell us anaesthetic.
not a single buyer at the mart wants them leaving entire apart from the ethnics when they have one certain festival a year and they only want them leaving entire for religious beliefs and nothing to do with animal welfare.
The supermarkets won’t take them entire past October because they’ll stink of tup taint.
Every time we allow this bulls**t to become mainstream and the norm in farming we lose what little power we have left

 

[Estate fencing.]

This thread had made me so angry, it’s bullshite that ringing a lamb as soon as it’s born causes it unnecessary pain, compared to a life time a being raped by the bigger lambs and getting the shite kicked out of them. It’s the cheapest and simple job. Just one in particular member (in one way than one) trying the destroy the industry.

 

[unlacedgecko]

So basically a couple of vets and a few “leading farmers”
(possibly the leading farmers are gecko)
are wanting a review on wether lambs need castrating or not and if they do the vets will sell us anaesthetic.
not a single buyer at the mart wants them leaving entire apart from the ethnics when they have one certain festival a year and they only want them leaving entire for religious beliefs and nothing to do with animal welfare.
The supermarkets won’t take them entire past October because they’ll stink of tup taint.
Every time we allow this bulls**t to become mainstream and the norm in farming we lose what little power we have left

Yes. The whole thing is a conspiracy I have put together using my immense political influence. I'm doing this because I massively stand to gain by...?

I'm non RT and not a member of NFU or any society, not even easycare breed society. I'm not affiliated with clipfitter or numbnutz.

In my long and glorious career as a professional fly grazer I've sold exactly 200 home bred breeding animals. They were all females and were tail docked. Part of my income is day contracting, which can often include castrating and tail docking lambs, as well as castrating and disbudding calves.

I saw the article on Facebook and post it here for discussion. My comments are pure conjecture and opinion based on what I perceive to be societal direction of travel.

I don't want to see rubber ring castration limited or banned. I think it should be legal up till 12 weeks. However, it's not. And the trend is for these regulations to become more stringent, not less.

So I'm doing 2 things.

1) planning my systems for the day when it is banned.

2) lobbying politicians to avoid a ban. If you would like to do the same I'd urge you to email your local MP. Their details can be found here.

TheyWorkForYou: Hansard and Official Reports for the UK Parliament, Scottish Parliament, and Northern Ireland Assembly - done right

Making it easy to keep an eye on the UK’s parliaments. Discover who represents you, how they’ve voted and what they’ve said in debates.

www.theyworkforyou.com

Must dash, I'm on the early train to London for a private audience with the DEFRA secretary. Then it's off to Liverpool for a BVA conference. The jet setting life of a "Leading Farmer"

 

[soapsud]

Less pain - more gain!

A new rubber ring applicator and pain relief delivery device, which provides up to 70% pain reduction in lambs after application, was recently put through its paces on farm. The rather cheekily named Numnuts system has been introduced to the country by NZ veterinary market supplier Agilis Vet...

www.ruralnewsgroup.co.nz

 

[neilo]

Less pain - more gain!

A new rubber ring applicator and pain relief delivery device, which provides up to 70% pain reduction in lambs after application, was recently put through its paces on farm. The rather cheekily named Numnuts system has been introduced to the country by NZ veterinary market supplier Agilis Vet...

www.ruralnewsgroup.co.nz

General practice in NZ is for tailing gangs to do tailing and castrating at the end of lambing, where rings are permitted at an older age.
Experience tells me that lambs can exhibit considerable discomfort when done older, albeit temporarily.

In the UK, we are limited to using them by 7 days of age, with a lot done far younger than that (usually before they leave lambing pens in indoor lambing flocks. That limit is (presumably) in place to reduce that discomfort when doing older lambs.

It’s not a problem and doesn’t need a solution. If people want to castrate at an older age (often at the end of lambing in more extensively managed flocks), then by all means develop new procedures, but of course that’s a smaller, less lucrative, market.

 

[Nithsdale]

Less pain - more gain!

A new rubber ring applicator and pain relief delivery device, which provides up to 70% pain reduction in lambs after application, was recently put through its paces on farm. The rather cheekily named Numnuts system has been introduced to the country by NZ veterinary market supplier Agilis Vet...

www.ruralnewsgroup.co.nz

How the fvck are you supposed to use on of those by yourself??

 

[Tim W]

So basically a couple of vets and a few “leading farmers”
(possibly the leading farmers are you )
are wanting a review on wether lambs need castrating or not and if they do the vets will sell us anaesthetic.
not a single buyer at the mart wants them leaving entire apart from the ethnics when they have one certain festival a year and they only want them leaving entire for religious beliefs and nothing to do with animal welfare.
The supermarkets won’t take them entire past October because they’ll stink of tup taint.
Every time we allow this bulls**t to become mainstream and the norm in farming we lose what little power we have left

You need to calm down and read my posts
At no stage have i said i wanted a review into castration methods
I have no way of gaining financially by banning or regulating castration methods

I am just looking at the way the world is going, recognising that there is likely to be more regulation rather than less and trying to plan for these potential changes ---and trying to explain where i think the desire comes from for change (vets /market forces/public perception)

I suggest that if you think there is a possibility of regulation being introduced that is ill thought out and counter productive that you follow @unlacedgecko good advice and ---

So I'm doing 2 things.

1) planning my systems for the day when it is banned.

2) lobbying politicians to avoid a ban. If you would like to do the same I'd urge you to email your local MP. Their details can be found here.

TheyWorkForYou: Hansard and Official Reports for the UK Parliament, Scottish Parliament, and Northern Ireland Assembly - done right

Making it easy to keep an eye on the UK’s parliaments. Discover who represents you, how they’ve voted and what they’ve said in debates.

www.theyworkforyou.com

 

[neilo]

How the fvck are you supposed to use on of those by yourself??

The original concept was developed in the mid-90’s it says. They’ve spent a very long time trying to promote the problem for their solution…

 

[S J H]

If your buyer is exporting lambs or parts of lambs to a market that demands no mutilation then he /she may not buy castrates?

I’ve never heard it, I thought the smart beltexs that go through Wigton would go for export, and I’m sure they’re castrated. But the entire lambs I see go through the market are either penalised or sold to the ethnic market.

It sounds to me that some one is pedalling an agenda and trying to get farmers on board by saying it’s what the market wants. If the market wants it, they’ll pay more but I haven’t seen any evidence of that yet.

 

[Aspiring Peasants]

This is the situation in EU in 2019 (last time i reviewed it) ----they will want to protect their standards & if we don't comply others will (NZ/Aus etc)
In 2019 95% of UK lamb exports went to EU so it matters to us what they think

Country	Import volume of UK sheep meat products (tonnes per annum)	Tail docking	Castration
France	30,500	Permitted	Permitted with local anaesthetic
Germany	16,223	Permitted in individual cases	Permitted, but rubber rings are banned
Republic of Ireland	9241	Permitted	Permitted
Belgium	7200	Permitted in females, only if performed by a veterinary surgeon	Permitted by a veterinary surgeon under sedation only
Netherlands	5208	Not permitted	Not permitted
Italy	2652	Not permitted	Not permitted

In the table the Netherlands and Italy are shown as not permitting tail docking and castration and you are saying that this means we will have to do the same to access markets with these rules. There is no evidence for this, according to AHDB the Netherlands and Italy are the 5th and 6th biggest importers of our lamb. This is a domestic UK issue and we should be standing together against it.

From the AHDB web site:-

Lamb​

The UK is the world's fifth largest producer and the third largest exporter of sheep meat.
With 300,000 tonnes of lamb and mutton produced annually, we export 88,000 tonnes of sheep meat, valued at £373.8m.
With strong competition from the Southern Hemisphere and South America, the UK still has strong trade relations with France, which import 27,000 tonnes annually, worth £123.5m.
Top 10 importers: France, Germany, Ireland, Belgium, Netherlands, Italy, Hong Kong, Jordan, Austria, Ghana

 

[Northeastfarmer]

You need to calm down and read my posts
At no stage have i said i wanted a review into castration methods
I have no way of gaining financially by banning or regulating castration methods

I am just looking at the way the world is going, recognising that there is likely to be more regulation rather than less and trying to plan for these potential changes ---and trying to explain where i think the desire comes from for change (vets /market forces/public perception)

I suggest that if you think there is a possibility of regulation being introduced that is ill thought out and counter productive that you follow @unlacedgecko good advice and ---

What do you mean the way the world is going?
I only see a couple of vets with an agenda….the ONLY time I ever see anything mentioned about castrating or “mutilating” is when you and gecko bring it up on this forum