Lamborghini R6 190 / Deutz Fahr Agrotron 6190 differential problem & bad ring and pinion

[DrDunc]

I am a such a noob
The wear on the ring pinion was actually the contact pattern, from factory, just look again, at the ring and pinion!
The tractor was bought brand new by me in 2013, and it was never opened before, just look what stupid contact pattern they made from factory. Shame on SDF, poor adjustment, I am very disappointed. If I didn't realise this, for sure the pinion would brake sometimes.
Now I need to adjust the contact pattern according to the image below.
I will definitely contact SDF group with this issue. This is clearly and defective assembly

Good luck

Think you already know more about it than most "engineers" at SDF

 

[Fendtbro]

That looks Pretty bad. But hopefully savable.. it can easily take a day to set up the crown wheel so take your time and do the best possible job. What is involved with changing the pinion height? On fendt’s own Synchro box changing the shims under the pinion will write off at least a week in labour.

 

[RaulP]

That looks Pretty bad. But hopefully savable.. it can easily take a day to set up the crown wheel so take your time and do the best possible job. What is involved with changing the pinion height? On fendt’s own Synchro box changing the shims under the pinion will write off at least a week in labour.

I adjusted the two screws of the crown. I've pushed the crown closer to the pinion. I did some tests with some paste and paper and it looks good.
I've finished the job better than I expected )

 

[Fendtbro]

I adjusted the two screws of the crown. I've pushed the crown closer to the pinion. I did some tests with some paste and paper and it looks good.
I've finished the job better than I expected )

Fingers crossed..!!

 

[David Bliss]

I've managed to dismantle the rear axle and got exactly what I was expecting...The differential carrier was destroyed by the bolts. I am guessing this happened from my fault, because I always used ASM when ploughing.
Some tips for those who want to do a similar job, there is no need to take down the cabin, you can just hold it up with some bars, and be sure to secure the tractor tight, I made a strong "saw horse" and bolted it on two screws on the transmission next to the rear axle. Also I've removed the rear axle with a Manitou 634.
Getting here was no easy job because I had to remove all the heavy stuff on the rear and many wiring and piping. I guess a workshop would charge a small fortune for all this.
Now, all I have to do is dismantle the differential and see what's broken inside.

I have noticed some strange wear on the ring gear, is that normal? it's only on the edge, about 2 cm long. (marked with red on the photo)

Also, do you guys use often ASM? My tractor has around 4000 working hours and as I said, I've used it often when ploughing (always on)

We and friend had same thing happen to Fiats in the 90s, soft diff pin not to bad but metal gone through brakes and hydraulics, also pin had dropped and bent pto shaft, afraid was handkerchief out as things got very bad, The so call mechanics at Does said couldn't find anything wrong and rousted up the road, when I said Do Not Drive, I said strip it, well they never bothered to check any thing, put new crown wheel and carrier, I started to road it back got about 4 miles and very slight Peeee sound then CRACK just slid to a stop, I knew what exactly they had done, two transmissions put all both qualities of oil in back none in the gearbox. Out of gear it would tow so they got it back into there yard, I was not best pleased, I really put my self out and insisted some one come out with a spanner and try the gearbox drain, this they did a bit slow? and I said GO ON let it go and half a cup full of oil ran out, Now worse was to come, they had to gas axe the gearbox shaft to get things apart, eventually said finished, Yep it was completely buggered, they had bent the cab roof by lifting it or think hole tractor, I wouldn't drive it home, my brother did as you know when you get idiots working on things, all was well until he got some miles and lost brakes, apparently full of metal and not put back in same position, So started on that Company and eventually got some one that had worked to where he was, tractor taken to Fulbourn but before it went had a bill for the diff parts a labour, bit like a toilet roll, seemed allot of bearings, I recon 4 but didn't know so started to ring round, got hold of a chap that cross referenced the bearing numbers most didn't even fit that tractor and was told then of what to look for being damaged, not only that the gearbox hadn't had all the damaged parts put right, the bill was £5.000 and about a year later a friend rang asked is it right you had trouble with Does not doing your 90-90 right after having the diff pin replaced and seized the gearbox up, this time for him they said clutch, It had already gone back, I said go down and get them to take the gearbox drain out, same thing, Until then had done all our repairs and other farms, so through the towel in on farming 23 years ago and do my own engineering making unobtainium parts, OH how many acres of heavy cultivating did the other Fiat do before it seized? I did in time about 15minutes on the road.
Just add, cultivated a small 9 acre field just coming round headland to finish, squeal bang, this tractor had done allot of work so loose-ish its still unbelievable.

 

[David Bliss]

Another bit that helps, used to drill the drain plugs and locktite in small magnet, have two plugs then can change and look. any grainy bits get your oil checked, as soon as we got our Fiat sorted as we had two the second with only 1200 hrs oil sample came back with iron so had the same problem starting,
Valmet used to get same crap showing in the back end oil, reduction epicycle gear pins only retained by a C clip and lose pins turned clips wear off , pins go for the trumpet housing if you are lucky, if it goes the other way its costs a little more like lots, even in low hours caused allot of expensive bits. so if you have one get some spare drain plugs and swap and check,

 

[Timbo]

We and friend had same thing happen to Fiats in the 90s, soft diff pin not to bad but metal gone through brakes and hydraulics, also pin had dropped and bent pto shaft, afraid was handkerchief out as things got very bad, The so call mechanics at Does said couldn't find anything wrong and rousted up the road, when I said Do Not Drive, I said strip it, well they never bothered to check any thing, put new crown wheel and carrier, I started to road it back got about 4 miles and very slight Peeee sound then CRACK just slid to a stop, I knew what exactly they had done, two transmissions put all both qualities of oil in back none in the gearbox. Out of gear it would tow so they got it back into there yard, I was not best pleased, I really put my self out and insisted some one come out with a spanner and try the gearbox drain, this they did a bit slow? and I said GO ON let it go and half a cup full of oil ran out, Now worse was to come, they had to gas axe the gearbox shaft to get things apart, eventually said finished, Yep it was completely buggered, they had bent the cab roof by lifting it or think hole tractor, I wouldn't drive it home, my brother did as you know when you get idiots working on things, all was well until he got some miles and lost brakes, apparently full of metal and not put back in same position, So started on that Company and eventually got some one that had worked to where he was, tractor taken to Fulbourn but before it went had a bill for the diff parts a labour, bit like a toilet roll, seemed allot of bearings, I recon 4 but didn't know so started to ring round, got hold of a chap that cross referenced the bearing numbers most didn't even fit that tractor and was told then of what to look for being damaged, not only that the gearbox hadn't had all the damaged parts put right, the bill was £5.000 and about a year later a friend rang asked is it right you had trouble with Does not doing your 90-90 right after having the diff pin replaced and seized the gearbox up, this time for him they said clutch, It had already gone back, I said go down and get them to take the gearbox drain out, same thing, Until then had done all our repairs and other farms, so through the towel in on farming 23 years ago and do my own engineering making unobtainium parts, OH how many acres of heavy cultivating did the other Fiat do before it seized? I did in time about 15minutes on the road.
Just add, cultivated a small 9 acre field just coming round headland to finish, squeal bang, this tractor had done allot of work so loose-ish its still unbelievable.

Does anyone elses head hurt after trying to make sense of all that?

 

[Gerbert]

I thought it was me not being a native english speaker.

 

[hintonroadhero]

I am a such a noob
The wear on the ring pinion was actually the contact pattern, from factory, just look again, at the ring and pinion!
The tractor was bought brand new by me in 2013, and it was never opened before, just look what stupid contact pattern they made from factory. Shame on SDF, poor adjustment, I am very disappointed. If I didn't realise this, for sure the pinion would brake sometimes.
Now I need to adjust the contact pattern according to the image below.
I will definitely contact SDF group with this issue. This is clearly and defective assembly

AS somebody has already said.. it wasn't assembled by SDH, but by ZF at Passau.. they should cover the problem !!!!! but at 9 years old good luck with that !!!!!

 

[David Bliss]

You don't have to read this or previous pictures posted, photos says it all, afraid 50+ years have taken there toll, but is what I used to do, pinion needs to be a little toe heavy and yours is heal heavy and more liable to break, pinion shafts flex, but is now not good as worn so may need to be set with a compromise where it looks good and not often said sounds good. you need some engineers blue. it tells all. photos of strait cut crown-wheel and pinion it was oval and .030 run out more like a corrugated roof so shimed and hand dressed in, it runs silent not often achieved with strait cut gears, If mr Horlic of Llewellins Gears Bristol if he is still there he will put you right.
And an observation being that its heel heavy wouldn't have thought possible being far out has the pinion moved?

 

[David Bliss]

Just a thought, have you hung on the back something really heavy and worked it hard at the same time, if you have its a theory might know whats caused it as very unusual to see such heavy heal contact. on all spiral bevel gears for toe and heel contact because the shape only moving the pinion in or out will alter the contact, once set the crow wheel is moved in or out for back lash not gear contact.
Going back over 30 years Renault had some weak castings.

 

[RaulP]

I had an old problem with my cooling system

Just a thought, have you hung on the back something really heavy and worked it hard at the same time, if you have its a theory might know whats caused it as very unusual to see such heavy heal contact. on all spiral bevel gears for toe and heel contact because the shape only moving the pinion in or out will alter the contact, once set the crow wheel is moved in or out for back lash not gear contact.
Going back over 30 years Renault had some weak castings.

I never used never hitched trailers or anything heavy. Just ploughs, cultivators, disk harrows. I did a heavy job a couple of years ago, deep scarification, about 40-50 cm, but that's all.

 

[David Bliss]

It was a thought as toque + weight = /\ that often leeds something parting company, and actually heavy toe contact, seen a few splitting around bell housing, gearbox and junction between box and axle, just a gasket, was told its why JD fitted chassis rails, I know how things flex, people will lean on the lathe, just say please don't it can alter the cut, I use a test bar and level to set set them, I demonstrated it one day, and got Unbelievable,

 

[RaulP]

I've sent an email to SDF headquarters in Italy, not mentioning my problembs, but asking them for a workshop manual
They didn't replied but my local dealer called, and told me they will never give me....I wasn't expecting such a fast reaction. Anyway, I am planing to send them another email and ask for a refund on the differential carrier, because that's cleary a factory fault....Don't think I'll try. I'll also show them the contact patch of the ring and pinion, but I cannot prove them it's from factory, that's the bad part.
In the future, I will need a bigger tractor, at least 250 hp, but honestly I am not considering Deutz an option...I had it with it...

 

[DrDunc]

I've sent an email to SDF headquarters in Italy, not mentioning my problembs, but asking them for a workshop manual
They didn't replied but my local dealer called, and told me they will never give me....I wasn't expecting such a fast reaction. Anyway, I am planing to send them another email and ask for a refund on the differential carrier, because that's cleary a factory fault....Don't think I'll try. I'll also show them the contact patch of the ring and pinion, but I cannot prove them it's from factory, that's the bad part.
In the future, I will need a bigger tractor, at least 250 hp, but honestly I am not considering Deutz an option...I had it with it...

You got an incredibly fast response dealer to say you NEVER get workshop manual

I think you must also send SDF Italy a link to this thread here on TFF, and tell them you need a 250hp tractor, but after this you will not have a Deutz

Wait to see how quickly dealer responds to that!!!

 

[RaulP]

You got an incredibly fast response dealer to say you NEVER get workshop manual

I think you must also send SDF Italy a link to this thread here on TFF, and tell them you need a 250hp tractor, but after this you will not have a Deutz

Wait to see how quickly dealer responds to that!!!

Haha, right. Well, I won't send them this link for sure
Still, you are missing the point. I have all the reasons in the world to be dissapointed by Deutz....
First one was the fact that the dealer who sold me the tractor didnt told me that the front shaft should be greased. Neither the user manual
Look what happened because of that

 

[Fendtbro]

Haha, right. Well, I won't send them this link for sure
Still, you are missing the point. I have all the reasons in the world to be dissapointed by Deutz....
First one was the fact that the dealer who sold me the tractor didnt told me that the front shaft should be greased. Neither the user manual
Look what happened because of that

Terrible design and build quality! My old mb trac is still running hard at 15k hours.. that’s just rubbish engineering from deutz/zf.

 

[livestock 1]

Had experience of Deutz agrotron mk 1 issues
Surprisingly needed a load of parts gearbox casing and shafts thought it couldn’t be to bad when I bought the thing being ZF. Unfortunately you can’t get a ZF part number and have to go SDF route. They did however discount the parts I needed from £6500 to nearer £3000 due to the dealer insisting my issue was a design fault.

 

[David Bliss]

It was a thought as toque + weight = /\ that often leeds something parting company, and actually heavy toe contact, seen a few splitting around bell housing, gearbox and junction between box and axle, just a gasket, was told its why JD fitted chassis rails, I know how things flex, people will lean on the lathe, just say please don't it can alter the cut, I use a test bar and level to set set them, I demonstrated it one day, and got Unbelievable,

When I used to work on things its obvious whats caused the failure, I was wrong saying the flex between axe and box would cause heavy toe contact of pinion, its heavy heal. Way back the Fiat dealers knew of the soft batch of diff pins, instead of a recall kept there heads down, we were unlucky getting the very I don't know what you would call engineer fitters that didn't look to find other damage, then put it together, without checking oils, as back end had a dipstick so total oil in one compartment would have shown overfull, then after seizing to bodge together the transmission, bill for bearings not even used on any part of that Fiat. They also did the same to friends Fiat tractor, hopefully didn't get the second poor treatment. yes it was sorted but left a bad taste.

In different working conditions might go a life time, there is a Ford near me looks very clean, fare amount of wear on back linkages, its done 22000hrs runs like a clock, lots of trailer work, not that much heavy cultivating.

 

[DrWazzock]

I searched on eBay for Lamborghini tractor manuals and found a firm in Poland who sent me a comprehensive workshop manual in English for my old Lambo 105. 1000 page paper copy arrived by post. Gives shimming details, preloading info etc. Don’t know if they can supply for your model but might be worth a try. Just search eBay for Lamborghini tractor workshop manual and you will see a Polish supplier. They seem to do some Deutz manuals as well. TBH a lot of the information in the manual was above my level of knowledge but it looked useful for somebody who actually knows what they are doing. I can’t recall the name of the supplier but they are still there if you look on eBay.