Large scale fraud and criminality on Pembrokeshire mega-herd farm.

[egbert]

I constantly find whole tags around the farm but can't ever prize them apart to reuse

boiling in a pan of watter?

 

[Pistonbroke]

I want to know how you swap a tag. I had a bullock recently that lost one of it's tags in the trailer on the way to the mart. Found the tag in the back of the trailer intact as the ear had split. Spent a while trying to prise it apart to reuse it, couldn't see how it was possible. Ended up buying a new one (it's now £6 for a tag on the day at the market )

Years ago we had a balls up tagging two calves and got the secondary button tags mixed ( fronts and backs wrong). They were ritchey tags with an odd looking parallel pliers. Turned them around backwards and it just punched the male tag back out,clean as a whistle. Auctioneer reckoned there were thousands of cattle swapped when the 30 month ban came in.

 

[FonterraFarmer]

Substantial fines for farmers who knowingly kept cattle with bovine TB reactors on farm

Three members of a Pembrokeshire farming family have been sentenced for deliberately swapping cattle ear tags; actions that saw animals with Bovine Tuberculosis (TB) reactors remain on the farm.

newsroom.pembrokeshire.gov.uk

Read the article. It brings the dairy industry into disrepute and in my opinion they should have substantial jail time as well as confiscation of assets on top of individual fines. They should also be stripped of their Farm Assurance status permanently.



What do you think?

Am I being too harsh? As ‘Hanging Judge Duck’ I would personally have seen them hung drawn and quartered and their heads publicly displayed on spikes outside the Court for their long term criminality, so maybe I am a bit harsh. We just cannot afford having these kinds of people in the industry. Apart from systemic animal cruelty I cannot imagine a worse case of farmer criminality than this.

Yeah nah, half hung and disembowelled is the correct way isn't it???

 

[Tim1989]

Not very easy when it's still on the cow though?

Yes I know that I meant if you need to retag a animal if it’s lost a tag and you found it

 

[BuskhillFarm]

What's JCB?

A digger… they bury their problem

 

[crashbox]

A digger… they bury their problem

Burying deadstock still allowed in Scotland too, best I know!

 

[egbert]

A digger… they bury their problem

like the spanish(?) and BSE?
They'd bought cattle from UK herds where they must have imported BSE....but they never seemed to. IIRC

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I want to know how you swap a tag. I had a bullock recently that lost one of it's tags in the trailer on the way to the mart. Found the tag in the back of the trailer intact as the ear had split. Spent a while trying to prise it apart to reuse it, couldn't see how it was possible. Ended up buying a new one (it's now £6 for a tag on the day at the market )

these would do the trick, haven't tried an eartag but I own a set of these (and just ordering myself another set from Temu) and they are one of the handiest things about, I reckon I've saved stabbing myself 20 times since I bought these for pulling hoses

'Pipe removal tool' I call them urka-durkas

 

[matthew]

Just a few thoughts:

Tb test isn't very accurate so there's more than likely been more "innocent" cows slaughtered that infected cows avoiding the bullet (for whatever reason)

Pasteurisation kills Tb so there's no risk to public health if infected animals remain on farm

UK Govt deliberately allows a pool of infection (badgers) to live unhindered on farms

Govt compensation is less than the value of the animal let alone the associated costs the farmer has to bear.


I can't imagine any other industry that would allow itself to suffer so much due to an unreliable test whilst being stopped from controlling the cause for a problem that ultimately has zero affect on the general public.

The intradermal skin test is the primary, universal test for zoonotic tubrculosis.
It shows exposure to the bacterium which may go on to cause TB in cattle, not necessarily active disease.

I was wondering that. It suggests that either the DNA is not routinely cross-checked to the carcass which I suppose is actually expensive so it makes sense.
Either that or they were deciding which were reactors on their own judgement before they were actually read by the vet and the tags were swapped before the reactor tags went in.

In England we have to go on table valuations so there would have been no real benefit to doing this to increase compensation (although some dodgy buggers might still try it in order to NOT lose an important bloodline).

What a disgrace, deliberate and prolonged fraud and wonderful material for the dairy-farmer haters.

Wales still voted for valuer valuations of reactors. Hence this 'problem'.
In fact when tabular came in for England, it was because the valuations from Wales were aproaching 6 figures - or so I was told by the prof. who did the graphs. Most of England's values were in a the 'accuarate' central box. One from Wales was £100K. So we got tabular.

If govt paid proper value, dodges would not be necessary

See above. Wales still on valuers' figures.

I’ve never heard of a farmer complain about how much they’ve been paid for an animal I.e. they’re getting about 120% of the animals value, for if they where getting 100% even the waterworks would soon be on

See above.

Your first point is just wrong. The test has a specificity of around 99.8% so roughly 1 in 5000 false positives. It has a sensitivity of maximum 80%, so at least 1 in 5 animals infected with TB within a herd are missed. Put another way: False positives are very rare, missing infected animals happens pretty much every time a herd with a history of TB is tested which is why is is such a persistent problem.

As much as we all love to blame deer, badgers and my Aunt Mildred.... the simple fact is that cow to cow transmisson is the vast bulk of TB transmission on every farm and the relatively poor sensitivity of the test is why it is such a headache to get rid of once you have it.

I have no love of the current TB policy at all but it is also pretty misunderstood.

Cattle to cattle transmission is difficult. Mainly because of the amount of cfu (colony forming bacteria) with lesions.
Cattle can have soup plate lesions, and still very few cfu. While badgers with tiny (miliary) lesions the bacteria are 'jumping off the slide'.
300 cfu in just 1ml of urine - is the figure obtained from badgers with kidney lesions.

@matthew care to comment here?

Not really.

It’s only so accurate as the cows are pretty infected and infectious by time skin test shows up, a blood test will show TB up approx 2-3months before skin test. But they can be done by non vets so where the “jobs for the boys” in that?

Gamma ifn will also show positive to a few other mycobacteria in the mTB basket, resulting in many unecessary deaths. A very blunt instrument, which other countries only use as a secondary screen. Not a slaughter policy.

Cow to cow transfer to a lot harder than badger to cow transfer because an infected badger sheds far more tb

^^ THis

True but solely blaming wildlife is deflecting a lot of blame away from other causes.

Why? I(f you've closed the door on 'other causes' there isn't a lot left, but the unthiunkable stripey thing.

If cow to cow transmission was the main cause, then how do you account for TB spreading around the country despite the TB policy we have had for decades?

There are fewer and fewer herds around, meaning they are geographically further and further apart, too. And yet the disease is spreading.

If it was solely a cow to cow problem, then it would be up to individual farms to curtail. I know a lot of people do not buy in animals at all and only ever send them away. Surely for these farms then a once annual test is ample?

Spoligotyping pin points TB to very specific areas. Only the movement of the carrier to other areas, either on a lorry or in a rescue cage, can move it around.

 

[vantage]

Wales still voted for valuer valuations of reactors. Hence this 'problem'.
In fact when tabular came in for England, it was because the valuations from Wales were aproaching 6 figures - or so I was told by the prof. who did the graphs. Most of England's values were in a the 'accuarate' central box. One from Wales was £100K. So we got tabular.

The freezebrander recounted a tale of a farm he went to, the farmer said he was almost in tears as two of his cows went away with TB. Quick as a flash the freezebrander replied that the farmer certainly wasn’t in tears when the cheque arrived. Allegedly six figures for the two cows!

 

[Pistonbroke]

The freezebrander recounted a tale of a farm he went to, the farmer said he was almost in tears as two of his cows went away with TB. Quick as a flash the freezebrander replied that the farmer cert wasn’t in tears when the cheque arrived. Allegedly six figures for the two cows!

I know one pedigree lim breeder that put up a big new muck store on a grant scheme as but there was a problem with paperwork or spec( not sure exactly) so he didn't get paid anything. One his heifers went down with tb and , although not one of his best ," paid for the f#####g muck pit , anyway" was his description

 

[Holsteinfriesian90]

I know one pedigree lim breeder that put up a big new muck store on a grant scheme as but there was a problem with paperwork or spec( not sure exactly) so he didn't get paid anything. One his heifers went down with tb and , although not one of his best ," paid for the f#####g muck pit , anyway" was his description

It’s all wrong. A 15 month old bulling heifer failed the gamma test no way has it got tb as it’s never been out the shed but anyway rang up last week compensation £590. What the actual f**k can you do with that. It’s an insult.

 

[sidjon]

The freezebrander recounted a tale of a farm he went to, the farmer said he was almost in tears as two of his cows went away with TB. Quick as a flash the freezebrander replied that the farmer certainly wasn’t in tears when the cheque arrived. Allegedly six figures for the two cows!

I've worked picking up tb reactors which I shot on farm, most expensive cow was 98k, to look at her at the time would have been lucky to get £300 on the hook as a MT old cow as she was, which has ended up with @Holsteinfriesian90 getting bugger all because the pedigree boys took the pee

 

[Pistonbroke]

I've worked picking up tb reactors which I shot on farm, most expensive cow was 98k, to look at her at the time would have been lucky to get £300 on the hook as a MT old cow as she was, which has ended up with @Holsteinfriesian90 getting bugger all because the pedigree boys took the pee

First time we had a reactor it was a ten yr old lim x cow ,no stunner. Ministry vet came to value her,asked me what she was worth. Me ,being a bit green and honest said she was only worth £400 to burn at her age. " What? Young cow like her has got ten calves in her yet" how about £1500?". Next time our local auctioneer came and he was as tight as a ducks arse,if anything they were less than market value .

 

[sidjon]

First time we had a reactor it was a ten yr old lim x cow ,no stunner. Ministry vet came to value her,asked me what she was worth. Me ,being a bit green and honest said she was only worth £400 to burn at her age. " What? Young cow like her has got ten calves in her yet" how about £1500?". Next time our local auctioneer came and he was as tight as a ducks arse,if anything they were less than market value .

In the old days of the early 90's, when we first w3nt down with tb, the Maff vet could value up to 5 animals and then auctioneers, did have a massive fall out with Stags who under valued 50 odd reactors by a couple hundred pounds a head just after F & M , did get another firm in to correct it, guess they were just creaming off money

 

[Tex]

Anyone know how they done it?

whenever we have a reactor the vet tags the animal straight away with a green tag that takes a DNA sample.

not sure how those guys thought they could get away with something so obvious. They must take people for fools, perhaps sending an aged cow with a heifers tag in it or something.

 

[egbert]

In the old days of the early 90's, when we first w3nt down with tb, the Maff vet could value up to 5 animals and then auctioneers, did have a massive fall out with Stags who under valued 50 odd reactors by a couple hundred pounds a head just after F & M , did get another firm in to correct it, guess they were just creaming off money

Who would've been creamy off what ££?

I was taken out in FMD very early, and got less than the feckin 'welfare cull'. I wouldn't let it bother me, or it'd fester....but it will never sit well with me.

 

[sidjon]

Who would've been creamy off what ££?

I was taken out in FMD very early, and got less than the feckin 'welfare cull'. I wouldn't let it bother me, or it'd fester....but it will never sit well with me.

Auctioneers

 

[matthew]

Anyone know how they done it?

whenever we have a reactor the vet tags the animal straight away with a green tag that takes a DNA sample.

not sure how those guys thought they could get away with something so obvious. They must take people for fools, perhaps sending an aged cow with a heifers tag in it or something.

Back from a fast zip into the dentists. Short and sweet - and a lot lighter in the pocket (of course)

so my comments on this debacle are as follows:

Those green button reactor tags plus DNA are no bloody use unless spot checks are done.
This scam went on regardless of any checks for far too long.
Anyone who plays by the rules, gets paid full comp. for reactors.
Caught fiddling, NO compensation at all, and the hamster wheel of restriction and testing rolls on.
If tags have been swopped, does it mean passport info is wrong on the animal that’s left? Who checks?
Splitting responsibility fir bits of this system has made it chaotic, not better. As different APHA departments are hundreds of miles apart and communication, nil.

This headline story makes a mockery of all of us who do play fair. So like the Duck, I too am bloody angry on behalf of those of us who have played this crazy game fairly.

 

[Spudley]

There has been a cap on TB payments in Wales for a long time now. Its nowhere near 6 figures- £4000 for a pedigree and £1800 for a commercial.