milk powders

[nt farm]

Hi all

Hellllllllllpppp.

just looking at helping son`s with possible new venture.

trying to do some costings and got to milk powder. where do you start???????

MVF have about 10 different ones, wynnstay have about 20.

some help.

these calves would be beef cross out of dairy cows, bulls would be going to beef and good heifers would go for breeding to give3/4 beef calves.

someone please give me some help on the different powders or are they a much of a muchness.

cheers

"most confused"

 

[MrA.G.]

There are a lot of different powders on the market and you will get a lot of varied opinions on what is the best. To generalise they can be split into two main groups, skim based which are generally more expensive and whey based which tend to be cheaper. Protein and fat content will affect price also along with other additives.

My preference is for skim based, most recent pallet was circa £2450 per tonne and we will probably feed around 40kg per calf from birth to weaning so a powder cost of circa £100 per calf. Hopefully this year we will reduce the 40kg per calf without compromising the calf.

 

[Rossymons]

Milk powder is milk powder is milk powder.

There are about 100 different brands and 100 different reasons why each one is the best.

I've never seen a huge difference between the most expensive and the cheapest on my calves. But everyone is different. So long as you feed it well and consistently you won't go far wrong whatever you use.

 

[Iogijones]

If you want wynnstay powder go for Stallar. Been using it for years with no problem

 

[Jdunn55]

Hi all

Hellllllllllpppp.

just looking at helping son`s with possible new venture.

trying to do some costings and got to milk powder. where do you start???????

MVF have about 10 different ones, wynnstay have about 20.

some help.

these calves would be beef cross out of dairy cows, bulls would be going to beef and good heifers would go for breeding to give3/4 beef calves.

someone please give me some help on the different powders or are they a much of a muchness.

cheers

"most confused"

I've tried a few different ones now, my opinion is as follows

A top quality whey is just as good if not better than a mediocre skim powder and probably cheaper

20% oil and 25% protein works well for me, I've tried the energized powders (more oil than protein) and didn't notice a difference in calf performance but did notice the money coming out the bank account...

Getting them onto hard feed is actually more important than the milk imo as that will be crucial to getting them growing cheaply (£400/t as opposed to £2000-£2500/t for milk powder)

Mine are eating about 3-4kg of cake by 6 weeks, averaging 1.4kg/day live weight growth over the first 56 days so being weaned at about 120kg at 8 weeks old.
I feed 1.2kg of powder and just under 7 litres of water split over 2 feeds a day, start cutting it back at 6 weeks so they're only fed once/day at 7 weeks and then weaned fully at 8 weeks

Make sure they have access to clean water at all times - its really crucial to get cake intakes up, without it intakes drop to 1-2kg instead of the 3+ needed

Ingredients are also really important. Linseed/rapeseed/grape/citrus oil is crap and calves can't utilise it until 4-6weeks so you don't want it in a powder if you can (coconut oil is the best for calves). Any wheat in the powder needs to be hydrolysised otherwise the calves can't digest it etc

That's my opinion, take it as you wish, I'm far from an expert.

 

[Zippy768]

I've tried a few different ones now, my opinion is as follows

A top quality whey is just as good if not better than a mediocre skim powder and probably cheaper

20% oil and 25% protein works well for me, I've tried the energized powders (more oil than protein) and didn't notice a difference in calf performance but did notice the money coming out the bank account...

Getting them onto hard feed is actually more important than the milk imo as that will be crucial to getting them growing cheaply (£400/t as opposed to £2000-£2500/t for milk powder)

Mine are eating about 3-4kg of cake by 6 weeks, averaging 1.4kg/day live weight growth over the first 56 days so being weaned at about 120kg at 8 weeks old.
I feed 1.2kg of powder and just under 7 litres of water split over 2 feeds a day, start cutting it back at 6 weeks so they're only fed once/day at 7 weeks and then weaned fully at 8 weeks

Make sure they have access to clean water at all times - its really crucial to get cake intakes up, without it intakes drop to 1-2kg instead of the 3+ needed

Ingredients are also really important. Linseed/rapeseed/grape/citrus oil is crap and calves can't utilise it until 4-6weeks so you don't want it in a powder if you can (coconut oil is the best for calves). Any wheat in the powder needs to be hydrolysised otherwise the calves can't digest it etc

That's my opinion, take it as you wish, I'm far from an expert.

Impressive growth weight .
What calves you rearing? And where are they sourced?

 

[Jdunn55]

Impressive growth weight .
What calves you rearing? And where are they sourced?

I'm dairy, so replacement holstein and British friesian heifers with some limos too.

 

[ollie989898]

Avoid anything containing a lot of vegetable protein.

Good quality powder and feed plenty of it.

 

[som farmer]

basically the more you pay, the better the powder.

but as @Jdunn55 correctly points out, it isn't quite as simple as that, you can bring other factors in, to alter things.

The first thing to realise is, you will never, ever get the same food to growth rates, as you can with calves under 6 months, so you have to max intakes, of quality food, from day 1.

We don't use powder, we acidify and store our colostrum, as we block calve our dairy.

The principles are the same though. When we did use powder, the mixing rate was the same, as 20 years earlier, calves have changed since then. Calf requirement for food, vary with the weather, they need more, in cold weather, so mixing rates need to vary, to get the same results. Colostrum is vital.

clean water, and fresh creep feed daily is a must, volume of milk fed, per feed, has an effect on creep feed eaten, we feed a low volume, higher concentrated milk feed, encourages creep intake, thereby increasing total feed per day.

we put a lot of faith in steady feeding times, and constant temp of milk, one must remember calves are babies, and need to be treated as such.

Calves come with disease exposure, own calves, are usually better protected from diseases that are present, on your farm, bought in calves, bring a mix of different diseases in, and a lot of trouble !

As long as you keep to the basic rules, calf rearing is an easy, rewarding job, if you don't, its a bloody nightmare. The standard of calf rearing, in the UK, is not good, mortality rates are high, some extremely high, we have been told, of 1 farm, 40% was normal, ouch.

we rear all our calves, our oct/nov born are eating 4/5kg conc a day, and look great. Our mortality rate, of viable calves born, this last winter, is 2%, 1 was a very small twin, the other just never got going.

our cows are vaccinated v rota virus, and because of the big variance in temp/humidity at calving, all calves were vac for respirational diseases, 1st time,

 

[ollie989898]

basically the more you pay, the better the powder.

but as @Jdunn55 correctly points out, it isn't quite as simple as that, you can bring other factors in, to alter things.

The first thing to realise is, you will never, ever get the same food to growth rates, as you can with calves under 6 months, so you have to max intakes, of quality food, from day 1.

We don't use powder, we acidify and store our colostrum, as we block calve our dairy.

The principles are the same though. When we did use powder, the mixing rate was the same, as 20 years earlier, calves have changed since then. Calf requirement for food, vary with the weather, they need more, in cold weather, so mixing rates need to vary, to get the same results. Colostrum is vital.

clean water, and fresh creep feed daily is a must, volume of milk fed, per feed, has an effect on creep feed eaten, we feed a low volume, higher concentrated milk feed, encourages creep intake, thereby increasing total feed per day.

we put a lot of faith in steady feeding times, and constant temp of milk, one must remember calves are babies, and need to be treated as such.

Calves come with disease exposure, own calves, are usually better protected from diseases that are present, on your farm, bought in calves, bring a mix of different diseases in, and a lot of trouble !

As long as you keep to the basic rules, calf rearing is an easy, rewarding job, if you don't, its a bloody nightmare. The standard of calf rearing, in the UK, is not good, mortality rates are high, some extremely high, we have been told, of 1 farm, 40% was normal, ouch.

we rear all our calves, our oct/nov born are eating 4/5kg conc a day, and look great. Our mortality rate, of viable calves born, this last winter, is 2%, 1 was a very small twin, the other just never got going.

our cows are vaccinated v rota virus, and because of the big variance in temp/humidity at calving, all calves were vac for respirational diseases, 1st time,

Your idea of storing and re-using colostrum is a good on provided you have a handle on Johnes disease. For those who do not, it is a surefire way of infecting virtually everything on the place in no time at all.

 

[In the pit]

Your idea of storing and re-using colostrum is a good on provided you have a handle on Johnes disease. For those who do not, it is a surefire way of infecting virtually everything on the place in no time at all.

He’s says acidifying milk kills it
It doesnt

 

[In the pit]

basically the more you pay, the better the powder.

but as @Jdunn55 correctly points out, it isn't quite as simple as that, you can bring other factors in, to alter things.

The first thing to realise is, you will never, ever get the same food to growth rates, as you can with calves under 6 months, so you have to max intakes, of quality food, from day 1.

We don't use powder, we acidify and store our colostrum, as we block calve our dairy.

The principles are the same though. When we did use powder, the mixing rate was the same, as 20 years earlier, calves have changed since then. Calf requirement for food, vary with the weather, they need more, in cold weather, so mixing rates need to vary, to get the same results. Colostrum is vital.

clean water, and fresh creep feed daily is a must, volume of milk fed, per feed, has an effect on creep feed eaten, we feed a low volume, higher concentrated milk feed, encourages creep intake, thereby increasing total feed per day.

we put a lot of faith in steady feeding times, and constant temp of milk, one must remember calves are babies, and need to be treated as such.

Calves come with disease exposure, own calves, are usually better protected from diseases that are present, on your farm, bought in calves, bring a mix of different diseases in, and a lot of trouble !

As long as you keep to the basic rules, calf rearing is an easy, rewarding job, if you don't, its a bloody nightmare. The standard of calf rearing, in the UK, is not good, mortality rates are high, some extremely high, we have been told, of 1 farm, 40% was normal, ouch.

we rear all our calves, our oct/nov born are eating 4/5kg conc a day, and look great. Our mortality rate, of viable calves born, this last winter, is 2%, 1 was a very small twin, the other just never got going.

our cows are vaccinated v rota virus, and because of the big variance in temp/humidity at calving, all calves were vac for respirational diseases, 1st time,

How do you feed a lower volume but get a higher concentrated milk

 

[ollie989898]

He’s says acidifying milk kills it
It doesnt

I cannot recall any technical detail on this any longer, but I can remember a case where several dairy farms in Ireland I think who were saving and pooling their colostrum and freezing it for use as needed. Our lecturer was a ministry vet and she had a very low opinion of the practice because of the risk of johnes although to be fair it could be that Ireland is johnes free.

 

[som farmer]

Your idea of storing and re-using colostrum is a good on provided you have a handle on Johnes disease. For those who do not, it is a surefire way of infecting virtually everything on the place in no time at all.

we test the cows, and no known johnes milk is used. Acidification is claimed to kill johnes in 3 days.

Does it ? I don't know, claim and counter claim.

We are milking 3rd/4th calvers now, reared on acidified milk, none have yet come back with a high or medium result.

Before using acid, we bought a jersey bull, off a farm we later found out to be highly infected, and his hfrs, all tested +ve, in their 1st, or 2nd lactations, none got to 3rd. Co-incidence ?

beef calves, usually finished before johnes shows up.

Johnes is a funny disease, 40/50 yrs ago, it was quite common, esp in the channel island breeds, used to start squitting, and lose condition, and were culled. Then, as holstiens increased, never saw it for 20+ years, now, as cows last longer, its a problem again, but it had to be circulating, under the radar, all that time.

 

[som farmer]

How do you feed a lower volume but get a higher concentrated milk

easy, a more concentrated mix, colostrum is 'richer' than a normal powder mix.

what's the point of feeding a large volume of milk, which fills the calf up, when you can feed less volume, same amount of powder/colostrum, and they eat more cake ? Did some work with denkavit on that, back early 2000's, and amounts of powder fed, effect of temp, on feed utilisation, all very eye opening.

the whole objective in rearing calves, is to max feed to growth rates, which will never be as good again, in the animals life, the more quality food, you can get them to eat, the better the utilisation of feed/growth ratio. Nothing complicated about that, as long as fresh clean water, is available 24/7. They also eat more straw, which develops the rumen quicker, something that improves intakes, utilisation, all through its life.

We have a cheap system, that you don't agree with, all l can say, is according to the vets, calf specialists in feed companies, and the sale ring, it works exceedingly well.

 

[nt farm]

Thanks all.

I think we will have to sit down and work out best way forward.

Interesting to see some companies are using rations ingredients that pre 4 week old can't utilise.

Thanks for your help. Sure I will be back later with more questions.

 

[Afarewyth]

A top quality whey is just as good if not better than a mediocre skim powder and probably cheaper

Interestingly I’ve been reading up on calf rearing lately and there’s a study on whey v skim based milk powders done at Harper Adams (Available here). In their study they say “Concentrate intakes from start to weaning were not significantly different. However the calves on the whey based milk replacer recorded higher intakes from weaning to 12 weeks and overall consumed an extra 13.6kg more concentrates per calf…” and later it says “The feed costs were reduced by £1.94 per calf with the whey based milk powder. Feed costs per kg gain were also reduced from 95.5 to 87.4p/kg based on the costs prevailing at the time of the study.”
This study was published in 2010, does anyone know of any newer information on calf rearing or is that the most up to date?

 

[Afarewyth]

A top quality whey is just as good if not better than a mediocre skim powder and probably cheaper

Interestingly I’ve been reading up on calf rearing lately and there’s a study on whey v skim based milk powders done at Harper Adams (Available on the NBA). In their study they say “Concentrate intakes from start to weaning were not significantly different. However the calves on the whey based milk replacer recorded higher intakes from weaning to 12 weeks and overall consumed an extra 13.6kg more concentrates per calf…” and later it says “The feed costs were reduced by £1.94 per calf with the whey based milk powder. Feed costs per kg gain were also reduced from 95.5 to 87.4p/kg based on the costs prevailing at the time of the study.”
This study was published in 2010, does anyone know of any newer information on calf rearing or is that the most up to date?

I tried posting the link but my comment has to be approved by a moderator or something.

 

[som farmer]

Interestingly I’ve been reading up on calf rearing lately and there’s a study on whey v skim based milk powders done at Harper Adams (Available on the NBA). In their study they say “Concentrate intakes from start to weaning were not significantly different. However the calves on the whey based milk replacer recorded higher intakes from weaning to 12 weeks and overall consumed an extra 13.6kg more concentrates per calf…” and later it says “The feed costs were reduced by £1.94 per calf with the whey based milk powder. Feed costs per kg gain were also reduced from 95.5 to 87.4p/kg based on the costs prevailing at the time of the study.”
This study was published in 2010, does anyone know of any newer information on calf rearing or is that the most up to date?

I tried posting the link but my comment has to be approved by a moderator or something.

l think calf growth, is more to do with the management, than the feed, you can 'get away' with some things, if your management is right, just as cannot, if management is wrong.

Back in the 60's, there was a 'new' idea, don't clean the milk buckets out, while the calves were on milk, the reasoning being, the 'right' sort of bacteria grow on the filthy buckets.

l put clean, at the top, but l have used the above, a very very few times, when l have had a scour problem, as a last resort, and it worked perfectly, and cleared the shites up.

that was promoted by BOCM, as the way to rear calves. Definitely not something l would repeat, or advise, but it solved a problem.

Calf gut health, is something we don't really think about, or doing some things that really promote it.
just as growing moulds/bugs etc, on dirty buckets, means we are feeding those bugs, which are the same as the calves, in its guts, into the calf, and the calf, doesn't have to make them.

live yogurt added to milk, to 'yogurtify' the milk, is only saving the calve, from making it, before utilising the milk. Acidifying with formic acid, does the same, both offer longer term storage methods. We have never tried yogurt, though l know some, who swear by it.

Powders, are an alternative to whole milk, but they differ from it, and there are loads of types, but they are not, the exact same, of whole milk.

 

[Cows 'n grass]

I've tried a few different ones now, my opinion is as follows

A top quality whey is just as good if not better than a mediocre skim powder and probably cheaper

20% oil and 25% protein works well for me, I've tried the energized powders (more oil than protein) and didn't notice a difference in calf performance but did notice the money coming out the bank account...

Getting them onto hard feed is actually more important than the milk imo as that will be crucial to getting them growing cheaply (£400/t as opposed to £2000-£2500/t for milk powder)

Mine are eating about 3-4kg of cake by 6 weeks, averaging 1.4kg/day live weight growth over the first 56 days so being weaned at about 120kg at 8 weeks old.
I feed 1.2kg of powder and just under 7 litres of water split over 2 feeds a day, start cutting it back at 6 weeks so they're only fed once/day at 7 weeks and then weaned fully at 8 weeks

Make sure they have access to clean water at all times - its really crucial to get cake intakes up, without it intakes drop to 1-2kg instead of the 3+ needed

Ingredients are also really important. Linseed/rapeseed/grape/citrus oil is crap and calves can't utilise it until 4-6weeks so you don't want it in a powder if you can (coconut oil is the best for calves). Any wheat in the powder needs to be hydrolysised otherwise the calves can't digest it etc

That's my opinion, take it as you wish, I'm far from an expert.

Which high protein powder are you feeding?