Net-Zero and livestock farming

[Muddyroads]

I’ve argued this for a long time. Measuring soil organic matter as a percentage is flawed as it takes no accpoint of soil volume. The percentage could remain the same each year, but if the soil volume increases you have gained carbon, if it decreases you’ve lost it.

 

[Old apprentice]

It is easy to see there is soil generated with things round the farm over the years.
Also look at these digs they do ,every thing is under a large lare of soil.

 

[DaveGrohl]

I’ve argued this for a long time. Measuring soil organic matter as a percentage is flawed as it takes no accpoint of soil volume. The percentage could remain the same each year, but if the soil volume increases you have gained carbon, if it decreases you’ve lost it.

There are a lot of things that we as farmers understand both instinctively and through experience that simply haven’t occurred to most of the researchers. That’s why much of the research starts at such a low assumption base and struggles from there. (I’m not going to mention P&N again, I promise)

 

[onesiedale]

Hello everyone, **not spamming but was suggested to move to this thread**

I wondered if anyone had any contacts for livestock farmers in England who are actively trying to achieve 'net zero' in their farming business. I'd like to chat with them about what they think the benefits are in doing this, what are the barriers, and how their business practices align with supporting government environmental ambitions. I'd also like to speak with farmers who are critical of net-zero and new environmental legislation- tbh on our farm we are not actively doing anything to meet net-zero, other than compliance with schemes but I know this varies around the country.

This is part of a research project I am working on at Leeds university. We are putting together a brief highlighting current farmer views and concerns. So your input could feed into policymaking. It would be great to arrange some interviews with those interested so I could formally collect some data and air farmer views and concerns.

Yorkshire, Cumbria and Exmoor regions are the areas under study but we would still welcome views from those further afield.

Kind regards,
Peter.
[email protected]

Back to the OP
@Peter Gittins are you happy that you have got enough sources of opinion for your research yet?
If so could we now clarify some terms of reference to work on.
What was said back thread;

Yes. What is the starting point ?

Is the research question 'What are livestock farmers doing to make themselves net-zero ?' or is it 'Do livestock farmers need to do anything with regards net-zero ?'

Because that is two very different questions.

is extremely relevant.
We are now 5 pages in to a thread started by a researcher (that's pretty good on here) let's now get some clarity on the starting point and the opinions you receive will be much more targeted at the work you are doing. Good use of everyone's time then ...and you may even get a bloody good policy document out of it!

 

[petergittins]

Back to the OP
@Peter Gittins are you happy that you have got enough sources of opinion for your research yet?
If so could we now clarify some terms of reference to work on.
What was said back thread;

is extremely relevant.
We are now 5 pages in to a thread started by a researcher (that's pretty good on here) let's now get some clarity on the starting point and the opinions you receive will be much more targeted at the work you are doing. Good use of everyone's time then ...and you may even get a bloody good policy document out of it!

Yes, a good range of opinions and interesting thoughts highlighted on this thread. I’m thankful for the discussion.

The starting point aligns more with the second one than the first, but I am not a fan of the set up for a yes or no answer.

Some more specific questions I’d be interested in exploring in greater depth with farmers are:

What does net-zero mean to you and
your farming business?

Are you considering net-zero on the farm? Then explore your reasons.

What are some of the challenges associated with net-zero? How might pressures to become net zero impact your business and the wider sector?

I am trying to understand farm management perspectives on the issue, looking at both the pros and cons in farm businesses becoming net-zero. So very technical questions are best aimed at climate scientists.

I do imagine many farmers are close/already net-zero. These views will also be highlighted- earlier in the thread someone evidences this.

 

[Highland Mule]

Yes, a good range of opinions and interesting thoughts highlighted on this thread. I’m thankful for the discussion.

The starting point aligns more with the second one than the first, but I am not a fan of the set up for a yes or no answer.

Some more specific questions I’d be interested in exploring in greater depth with farmers are:

What does net-zero mean to you and
your farming business?

Are you considering net-zero on the farm? Then explore your reasons.

What are some of the challenges associated with net-zero? How might pressures to become net zero impact your business and the wider sector?

I am trying to understand farm management perspectives on the issue, looking at both the pros and cons in farm businesses becoming net-zero. So very technical questions are best aimed at climate scientists.

I do imagine many farmers are close/already net-zero. These views will also be highlighted- earlier in the thread someone evidences this.

Okay then, let’s start by defining net zero. That would be useful.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

but the fact is cows are building soil. year on year. no one can deny that

Our actions can deny it making any difference to the whole.
That's what I have learned about cows and land and life - the harder you try to help things along, the less help you are and the harder you work.

I'm projecting this onto grazing methodology as well, in the context of "doing it for climate change" you would be better off not letting that chaotic stuff into your head, if you wanted to make a lasting difference

 

[onesiedale]

@Peter Gittins
this below sums up net zero policies nicely

, in the context of "doing it for climate change" you would be better off not letting that chaotic stuff into your head, if you wanted to make a lasting difference

so your starting point of;
'Do livestock farmers need to do anything with regards net-zero ?'
could be answered simply as "interfere as little as possible"

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Yes, a good range of opinions and interesting thoughts highlighted on this thread. I’m thankful for the discussion.

The starting point aligns more with the second one than the first, but I am not a fan of the set up for a yes or no answer.

Some more specific questions I’d be interested in exploring in greater depth with farmers are:

What does net-zero mean to you and
your farming business?

Are you considering net-zero on the farm? Then explore your reasons.

What are some of the challenges associated with net-zero? How might pressures to become net zero impact your business and the wider sector?

I am trying to understand farm management perspectives on the issue, looking at both the pros and cons in farm businesses becoming net-zero. So very technical questions are best aimed at climate scientists.

I do imagine many farmers are close/already net-zero. These views will also be highlighted- earlier in the thread someone evidences this.

I'm not UK based, and thanks for the extra explanations you've provided.

I can give you some of my thoughts, they are worth what you're paying for them..

Yes, we are certainly mindful of "net zero" but the sole motivation lies within keeping what we are privileged enough to "have" - the land

Energy could be the largest cost to our business and it's been quite a fun ride designing out all the things that require us to buy energy in, 'stable and increasing profit' is one of the rules of the game created.
The obvious is that it shifts our focus onto energy cycling - or return to the soil of energy captured by photosynthesis, via the increase of kinetic energy, through changing the behaviour of the animals, grazing.

Net Zero to our business represents two distinct things: freedom, in the respect that sequestering far more than we used to see as possible has transformed our grazing to the point that it all takes care of itself.. and the threat being a victim of fear, ie the "narratives" around climate and enteric methane production cease to matter.

As @Highland Mule asks - and I think this is the kicker - who makes up the game of "Net Zero" makes all the difference.

We made up our own net zero game, it is about improving our land and cattle and relationships and profit and stability.
We play to win all the time, and we aren't attached to the results, because we made up the game and know it's a made-up-game.
But that doesn't stop us playing to win.

The kicker is, if we are in a game that lets other people (without power of veto in our operation) decide for us the rules of the game in play, then attachment becomes reality.
Cheating and avoiding responsibility for the results become part of the game. Endless comparisons to others become part of the game.
Not being able to win at the game, becomes the gimmick of the game?

My conclusion is pretty simple - avoid games created by other people, even if it is the "easy way" - stuff like selling carbon credits leaves me cold inside, like picking up rotten apples that dropped from the trees and declaring oneself as a master apple-picker.
I'd prefer to be up on the skinny boughs, picking the best apples in a state of choosing freely which ones.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I’ve argued this for a long time. Measuring soil organic matter as a percentage is flawed as it takes no accpoint of soil volume. The percentage could remain the same each year, but if the soil volume increases you have gained carbon, if it decreases you’ve lost it.

Hey, the fertiliser industry gets fat off this illusion.

"Pluck a hair from your head, send it to me with £50, and I'll tell you your future"

 

[delilah]

so your starting point of;
'Do livestock farmers need to do anything with regards net-zero ?'
could be answered simply as "interfere as little as possible"

This is the issue though. That isn't @petergittins starting point.
He hasn't asked that question, that's the one that has been suggested to him.
Rather, he has asked "What are farmers doing to make themselves net-zero ?"

Peter says he doesn't like the question as suggested, because he doesn't want to ask a 'yes/no' question.
Fair enough, but surely once a farmer answers "yes" or "no" you then ask them to expand on/justify that view ?

I'm no academic, but I would say that Peter's question is fundamentally flawed in that it starts of with a supposition. Surely the starting point has to be one of neutrality ?

 

[onesiedale]

Surely the starting point has to be one of neutrality ?

or maybe;
"what does the term 'Net Zero' mean to your farm business? "

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

This is the issue though. That isn't @petergittins starting point.
He hasn't asked that question, that's the one that has been suggested to him.
Rather, he has asked "What are farmers doing to make themselves net-zero ?"

Peter says he doesn't like the question as suggested, because he doesn't want to ask a 'yes/no' question.
Fair enough, but surely once a farmer answers "yes" or "no" you then ask them to expand on/justify that view ?

I'm no academic, but I would say that Peter's question is fundamentally flawed in that it starts of with a supposition. Surely the starting point has to be one of neutrality ?

The answer could be "nothing, I already absorb more carbon on my farm that is burnt".

 

[petergittins]

or maybe;
"what does the term 'Net Zero' mean to your farm business? "

Yeah, this is one of the starting questions I am asking and mentioned this a couple of posts back.

 

[petergittins]

This is the issue though. That isn't @petergittins starting point.
He hasn't asked that question, that's the one that has been suggested to him.
Rather, he has asked "What are farmers doing to make themselves net-zero ?"

Peter says he doesn't like the question as suggested, because he doesn't want to ask a 'yes/no' question.
Fair enough, but surely once a farmer answers "yes" or "no" you then ask them to expand on/justify that view ?

I don’t recall asking “what are farmers doing to make themselves net-zero?”

One of my starting questions is ‘What is your understanding of the term ‘net zero and what does it mean for your business.’

Which also links to your question- Are you currently considering ‘net-zero’ on your farm? Then explain your reasons- to overcome the yes/no limitation.

Hope this clarifies.

 

[delilah]

I don’t recall asking “what are farmers doing to make themselves net-zero?”

your OP:

I wondered if anyone had any contacts for livestock farmers in England who are actively trying to achieve 'net zero' in their farming business.

 

[petergittins]

your OP:

I'd also like to speak with farmers who are critical of net-zero and new environmental legislation- tbh on our farm we are not actively doing anything to meet net-zero, other than compliance with schemes but I know this varies around the country.

Yeah, I think for a balanced approach both sides need exploring. Hence in the OP I suggest how I want to talk to those pursuing net zero on farm and those more critical of it.

Of course, there are some farmers advocating strongly for net-zero and those that aren’t. The poll is quite interesting on this forum too.

I don’t think it would be good research to just explore the types of farmers who are firmly advocating for it- as there are valid reasons for not pursuing it and exploring these can uncover some of the policy issues.

 

[DaveGrohl]

Yeah, I think for a balanced approach both sides need exploring. Hence in the OP I suggest how I want to talk to those pursuing net zero on farm and those more critical of it.

Of course, there are some farmers advocating strongly for net-zero and those that aren’t. The poll is quite interesting on this forum too.

I don’t think it would be good research to just explore the types of farmers who are firmly advocating for it- as there are valid reasons for not pursuing it and exploring these can uncover some of the policy issues.

Re the poll, I hope you’ve actually read the thread that accompanies it. The Grocer magazine quoted the poll recently in one of their articles. They merely used the poll as "proof" to infer that farmers were ignorant climate deniers, which was unbelievably insulting per se, but doubly so because they clearly didn’t bother to have the courtesy to read the accompanying thread. Pathetic journalism, it’s what the country’s media is now built on.

 

[petergittins]

Re the poll, I hope you’ve actually read the thread that accompanies it. The Grocer magazine quoted the poll recently in one of their articles. They merely used the poll as "proof" to infer that farmers were ignorant climate deniers, which was unbelievably insulting per se, but doubly so because they clearly didn’t bother to have the courtesy to read the accompanying thread. Pathetic journalism, it’s what the country’s media is now built on.

I have read the thread. Polls are easy to digest information but can be taken out of context at times. I haven’t come across the Grocer article though if you have a link?

 

[DaveGrohl]

I have read the thread. Polls are easy to digest information but can be taken out of context at times. I haven’t come across the Grocer article though if you have a link?

Post 366 here;

Are you working towards net zero emissions by 2040?

This thread and poll got a mention in the Grocer: https://www.thegrocer.co.uk/the-grocer-blog-daily-bread/will-cop27-help-food-brands-grasp-the-consumption-nettle-probably-not/673253.article

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