New entrant looking for advice on slatted sheds for sheep and cattle

[Emilym]

We are looking at buying a farm steading and part of our business plan includes constructing a new shed and converting an existing shed looking for advice on things to consider and a sounding board on whether our plans sound reasonable.

Converting existing earth floor shed to slatted sheep shed

I have watched a lot of videos on shed design and pointers and they are mostly saying aim for groups of no more than 60 ewes per pen with 6 inch feed space per ewe. We will be feeding TMR.
Thinking of using plastic slats.
Looking for advice on whether to concrete the slurry pit or leave it earth bottom and some guidance on size seeing people mention 1m to 1.5m but some people saying deeper pits are draughty.

Would plan on tupping outside in November then bringing in for three months then back out for lambing. Does anyone tup in shed - would this mean a tighter lambing?

Would most likely be using shed before ewes come in to finish off any final lambs.

Do you shear again when bringing ewes into shed?

Any more issues with disease in shed?

Shed would be close to existing handling system and all under cover.

Building new slatted shed for raising calves to circa 350kg to sell as stores

Looking to build a slatted shed to raise store cattle that we plan on buying in milk. Shed has to be under 1000 Sq m for permitted development rights in our county. So was thinking of 27m by 37m. Was thinking of having the width of the slatted pens as 15ft with a feed passage of 12ft. The length of the pens would be 90ft (27m) split into either 3 pens or 6 pens (either 15ft by 15ft or 30ft by 15ft) was hoping to keep either 7 or 14 per pen - does this sound reasonable?

The pens would run up the shed with feed passage in between and pens back to back with a total of four rows and two feed passages. Drive through feed passages.

Saw some people say just cover the gable ends and leave sides open? Position of shed is very sheltered and side that is open would be about 30ft from forestry. Other open side would face on to yard and not likely to get wind.

Read a lot of people say that rubber covered slats are most comfortable and to rubber the back of the pen a couple of foot to prevent lying against the feed barrier.

Trying to come up with a design to incorporate a handling system and loading pen.

Anything we haven't thought about? Thanks in advance for any advice or comments

 

[Emilym]

I think money will be your problem, even if you are loaded! It's a constant spend until you sell those cattle. Be it 6 a week or 150 in 6 months or how you chose. If you build good sheds you might buy cheaper stock than you'd like or dearer stock that you can't house.
You need to buy it and see what happens. All the plans in farming change quickly. Prices change opportunities arise out the blue or disappear. Get it bought and see where you end up.

Definitely not loaded and yes think it will be the juggle of paying for the feed until get first big lot away (ideally half of what we buy initially) then need to try and aim for getting some away every six weeks and moving them through more regularly for cash flow. Not expecting to make any profit for first two years until got a system in place and acknowledge never going to make a lot of profit but the benefit would be owning the land and buildings in 25 years.

 

[Aspiring Peasants]

Did you miss the bit about having a third of the stock and selling surplus in the Autumn? Running much lower numbers makes it possible on a whole lot more farms. Obviously it slashes output too but, when costs have escalated so far, maybe it can leave more profit at the end of the day?

Sounds like a hobby, the stocking rate would have to be so low. Don't fancy selling 2/3rds of my breeding sheep in the autumn and buying them back in the spring

 

[Aspiring Peasants]

We also lamb outside the plan would be to bring them in maybe December to mid March rest the fields then put them out to lamb in April.

Ideal IMO, makes best use of land , need to be on slats

 

[Rich_ard]

Definitely not loaded and yes think it will be the juggle of paying for the feed until get first big lot away (ideally half of what we buy initially) then need to try and aim for getting some away every six weeks and moving them through more regularly for cash flow. Not expecting to make any profit for first two years until got a system in place and acknowledge never going to make a lot of profit but the benefit would be owning the land and buildings in 25 years.

If you trail through alot of threads on here you will see some treat land ownership and farming as separate things. In my experience owning the land is easier when not thinking about farming. Sheep and cows are a distraction when your needing to pay a mortgage. Probably not what you want to hear and hopefully there is someone who will tell you the opposite. Once your a few years in and comfortable paying things off then start spending on stock and sheds etc. Your wages will hopefully go up. Land always rises in the long term. What seams like hard work at the start becomes easier after say 5 years. By ten years you will wish you bought more!

 

[Emilym]

If you trail through alot of threads on here you will see some treat land ownership and farming as separate things. In my experience owning the land is easier when not thinking about farming. Sheep and cows are a distraction when your needing to pay a mortgage. Probably not what you want to hear and hopefully there is someone who will tell you the opposite. Once your a few years in and comfortable paying things off then start spending on stock and sheds etc. Your wages will hopefully go up. Land always rises in the long term. What seams like hard work at the start becomes easier after say 5 years. By ten years you will wish you bought more!

I can see why that would be better the problem is that if you don't already own land they don't give any kind of finance to buy land IME unless you're going to farm it like even with a salary and a deposit of 25% that's not enough for them to lend you money they want a business plan of what you'll do on the land and if you're buying 150 acres traditional farming or regenerative farming IMO wouldn't pay the finance.

 

[Rich_ard]

I can see why that would be better the problem is that if you don't already own land they don't give any kind of finance to buy land IME unless you're going to farm it like even with a salary and a deposit of 25% that's not enough for them to lend you money they want a business plan of what you'll do on the land and if you're buying 150 acres traditional farming or regenerative farming IMO wouldn't pay the finance.

It's not easy but it never has been either.

 

[ringi]

Did you miss the bit about having a third of the stock and selling surplus in the Autumn? Running much lower numbers makes it possible on a whole lot more farms. Obviously it slashes output too but, when costs have escalated so far, maybe it can leave more profit at the end of the day?

Or at least much lower risk of losing money for someone who does not need to pay a morgage or rent and have other income to live on. Likely to also result in more wildlifes and hence a nicer lifestyle.

 

[ringi]

Sounds like a hobby, the stocking rate would have to be so low. Don't fancy selling 2/3rds of my breeding sheep in the autumn and buying them back in the spring

But what if buy dairy calves in spring to "cell graze" with long recovery times, running 1/3 the sheep on 1 in 3 cells 2 weeks after the calves. So can lamb on the cells that have not had lambs for 18 months. Cull all ewes that give singles. Record the ewe each lamb come from so can also cull ewes that give lowest kg of lamb relative to ewe size. Having fewer ewes will give time for data collection at lambing.

 

[deere 6600]

Build as big a shed as you can lamb sheep in it don’t bother with cattle

 

[Aspiring Peasants]

But what if buy dairy calves in spring to "cell graze" with long recovery times, running 1/3 the sheep on 1 in 3 cells 2 weeks after the calves. So can lamb on the cells that have not had lambs for 18 months. Cull all ewes that give singles. Record the ewe each lamb come from so can also cull ewes that give lowest kg of lamb relative to ewe size. Having fewer ewes will give time for data collection at lambing.

Lambing on grass that hasn’t had sheep on for 18 months will be very beneficial, but how do you do that if they’re following the calves round. You will still need buildings for the cattle in the winter, selling dairy bred in the autumn is unlikely to be profitable. You‘d be better having the land divided into 1/3 sheep grazing, 1/3 cattle and 1/3 mowing and getting them off the grass in the winter so there’s a chance of good spring grass

 

[Jonny B88]

Can't

Hi good questions we have two years experience as business owners which is why we may qualify for the type of finance we are applying for. Both have previous experience before this including my partner coming from a small farm and having worked on dairys that being said still wouldn't say we are super experienced and imagine lots still to learn.

There will be approximately 150 acres of land with the steading which we plan to mainly cut. There will be another 700 acres rough hill ground rented which we would run the sheep on in summer.

One of us has full time employment off the farm on a £70k salary and as such we would just need the farm to pay for itself and it's debt and not need it to provide costs of living on top of this.

I note your point that it's unlikely the value of steading purchase plus cost to erect sheds would be what you could achieve on the market for it if you sold it the next day. This would be a huge gamble and we would be at the mercy of being able to cover our costs.

We have two kids and are 30 and the hope would be that we could pay it off by our early 50s and leave something for our kids.

We don't want to go down the route of a tenancy as they are impossible to come by and now contain so many break clauses there is hardly any security. We also don't want to borrow over a million pounds so this is the only way we could come up with to try and achieve in excess of 200k turnover (although probably minimal profit after finance costs etc) on a small piece of ground - other suggestions welcome.

If your heart is set on sheep so be it but to me 150 acres of decent ground and 700 acres of rough hill shouts low input sucklers to me. Run them over the low ground in summer and hill in winter. Simple.

on the sheep, i don't see the point in hanging a financial noose around your neck with building to winter sheep if they could be kept outside with that hill. Thats your natural shed potentially.

Busy fools and all that just to generate a high turnover to service high finances. Spend any extra money building yourselves a house, no point building a concrete palace for the animals if you’re living under a leaky roof.

 

[ringi]

Lambing on grass that hasn’t had sheep on for 18 months will be very beneficial, but how do you do that if they’re following the calves round. You will still need buildings for the cattle in the winter, selling dairy bred in the autumn is unlikely to be profitable. You‘d be better having the land divided into 1/3 sheep grazing, 1/3 cattle and 1/3 mowing and getting them off the grass in the winter so there’s a chance of good spring grass

His 700 acres of rough hill gives winter options but lets pretend thats not an option.

You will still need buildings for the cattle in the winter,

Not if you sell them at start of winter to a finishing unit and buy them at the correct age to put on grass in spring. Then once system is proven can consider a building to allow them to be bought a few weeks old at start of winder.

Lambing on grass that hasn’t had sheep on for 18 months will be very beneficial, but how do you do that if they’re following the calves round

(I assuming no use of mowing so no issues with leaving small cells setup. Once system proven can get payments for putting hedges between cells.)

Lay the field out like:
A1 B1 C1
A2 B2 C2
A3 B3 C3
A4 B4 C4
A5 B5 C5
A6 B6 C5

Move cattle like A1>B1>C1>A2>B2>C2
Move sheep on 1st year like A1>A2>A3
So only 1/3 of the cells have sheap following the calves.

 

[Headless chicken]

Yes don't think it's going to be cheap but we are able to submit a proposal for borrowing so will only be able to do something like this once so want to make sure we get it right!

The aim is to be able to sell circa 150 store cattle every six months so we can afford to pay back the borrowing

At risk of sounding like a real dick and quite possibly I’ve not quite understood what level of capital you’ve got spare, I think your figuring is way out and I think the margin on 300 cattle a year will struggle to cover the interest. The easiest pound you’ll make is the one you’ve not spent. @unlacedgecko is doing some brilliant things with minimal input and “cheap” stock

 

[ringi]

Yes don't think it's going to be cheap but we are able to submit a proposal for borrowing so will only be able to do something like this once so want to make sure we get it right!

The aim is to be able to sell circa 150 store cattle every six months so we can afford to pay back the borrowing

Without the borrowing how many native breed organic cattle would you need to sell?

 

[Emilym]

Without the borrowing how many native breed organic cattle would you need to sell?

We don't own any land we would need to borrow money to buy land. If we bought land and no working capital improvements probably looking at 48k repayments per year. The issue is the funding we can get we can get now because we qualify for new entrant - we can't go back in two years and then ask for 250k to build sheds. If we borrow the working capital probably looking at 72k repayments per year.

We also aren't organic so no idea about that point.

In comparison we pay about 16k to rent on a grass let (so absolutely no security) and no BPS circa 200 acres in dreadful condition needing a lot of lime and not been re seeded in 30 years and most clay drains are broken, strainers rotting away and right next to a very busy road. We don't feel there is any point us investing time and money correcting these issues (landlord not interested) as we could lose the ground the following year and a lot of forestry in our area makes that very possible. We currently have quite small sheds of which there are three only one is suitable for keeping cattle where we keep our suckler cows at capacity with 15 cows. Earth floor so straw bedded at extra cost of 2k minimum per year. We had to modify shed to make it (barely) suitable for keeping cattle. We also don't have running water or electricity where we currently are or any secure place to store bike so have to trailer that up.

The ground we want to buy is not in much better condition and the current sheds are slightly better but not by much the difference is if we own it we will invest the time and money in reseeding, fencing, drainage etc. Hence why a working capital loan to build a special purpose shed and do some of these tasks is the preferred route.

 

[ringi]

We also aren't organic so no idea about that point

The "organic" is just because low input cattle systems tend to be already close to organic standards and it can increase sales prices. (The "organic movement" also have people who know how to operate such systems.)

 

[ringi]

The issue is the funding we can get we can get now because we qualify for new entrant - we can't go back in two years and then ask for 250k to build sheds.

This seems daft as it pushes people away from the systems that the government are trying to promote for wildlife.

 

[SolwayFarmer]

I wouldn’t bother with the big capital investment in slatted this that and the other. Select the right type of stock to suit the land. Away winter cows /ewes if needs be. Suckler and sheep can’t sustain big overheads. Keep it simple.

 

[toquark]

I wouldn’t bother with the big capital investment in slatted this that and the other. Select the right type of stock to suit the land. Away winter cows /ewes if needs be. Suckler and sheep can’t sustain big overheads. Keep it simple.

This. Your major capital input will be buying the place, i wouldn’t saddle myself with more debt for the luxury of a nice shed, it sounds like the place has enough land to outwinter stock at the right levels.

We’re also in our 30s with two kids and farming alongside two jobs, don’t underestimate how much time a high input system will take and the pressure (both time and financial) this puts on family life. Your kids may not thank you for it in future.

There are a lot of dreamers who start threads like this but from what you’ve written, you aren’t one of them. It sounds like you’ve got your heads screwed on though and are in a good position to make a good go of it, it’s just a case of weighing up how you want to farm it. Low input simplicity would be my choice, but best of luck whatever you do.

 

[Rich_ard]

This. Your major capital input will be buying the place, i wouldn’t saddle myself with more debt for the luxury of a nice shed, it sounds like the place has enough land to outwinter stock at the right levels.

We’re also in our 30s with two kids and farming alongside two jobs, don’t underestimate how much time a high input system will take and the pressure (both time and financial) this puts on family life. Your kids may not thank you for it in future.

There are a lot of dreamers who start threads like this but from what you’ve written, you aren’t one of them. It sounds like you’ve got your heads screwed on though and are in a good position to make a good go of it, it’s just a case of weighing up how you want to farm it. Low input simplicity would be my choice, but best of luck whatever you do.

Sorry to add, as you and I are included in it, but even those who do, "do it," it are dreamers! Maybe just harder working dreamers.