New entrants / post entry / building the future of our industry.

[glasshouse]

Whilst i would have agreed wholeheartedly with this when i was younger (i was always jealous of the farmers sons/daughters i knew with a known path into the industry) ---i am now glad that i didn't inherit a farm .
This meant i had the freedom from tradition to do what i wanted
It also meant that i didn't have to argue with parents about how to farm
It also meant that i didn't have to wait until my parents died before i had a say in the business

Figuring succession into a farming business can be as difficult as starting with nothing i think?

Agreed

 

[CopperBeech]

As long as I can remember there's been small flocks about that have some kit and feed loads of cake and generally muck about. Wether it's a full time income or not I don't know, I don't expect it is but does it really matter? For every one that goes into it that way there's one that ends up with a 1000+ sheep and plenty in between somewhere just quietly getting on with it.
Life would be boring if everyone did the same thing

I’ve maybe come across wrong in what I’ve said.

I suppose what I’m asking is are there many folk who want to build to that bigger level now, and are there the opportunities for them?

I have no issue with small farms, small holders etc, and everyone is different. What I find curious is that often these folk with a higher profile end up finding themselves informing policy etc or speaking for our industry. Helping to shape our industry.

Im just curious what kind of industry and future we are building ? It was just a musing, not meant in a nasty way.

PS I hear you met a friend of mine the other day.

 

[glasshouse]

I’ve maybe come across wrong in what I’ve said.

I suppose what I’m asking is are there many folk who want to build to that bigger level now, and are there the opportunities for them?

I have no issue with small farms, small holders etc, and everyone is different. What I find curious is that often these folk with a higher profile end up finding themselves informing policy etc or speaking for our industry. Helping to shape our industry.

Im just curious what kind of industry and future we are building ? It was just a musing, not meant in a nasty way.

PS I hear you met a friend of mine the other day.

Opportunities for sheepfarming for young people are very limited since govt is funding estates to evict farmers and let the weeds grow or plant trees
Allowing landowners to claim bps on rented out grass is also a disaster.

 

[Gulli]

I’ve maybe come across wrong in what I’ve said.

I suppose what I’m asking is are there many folk who want to build to that bigger level now, and are there the opportunities for them?

I have no issue with small farms, small holders etc, and everyone is different. What I find curious is that often these folk with a higher profile end up finding themselves informing policy etc or speaking for our industry. Helping to shape our industry.

Im just curious what kind of industry and future we are building ? It was just a musing, not meant in a nasty way.

PS I hear you met a friend of mine the other day.

There's always the opportunities I think, just a case of being in the right place at the right time.
Also I think the people who have the time to build a profile and inform policy and sit on boards for the most part aren't the people who should be informing on policy. But the ones that should be shaping the industry are too busy working/value their time differently on the whole.

Yes I did! Was quite an interesting project that although it didn't uncover any real surprises here, although it's been a difficult lambing this year for various reasons so nice to see the ewes are doing their bit for the most part. looking forward to the final results

 

[CopperBeech]

There's always the opportunities I think, just a case of being in the right place at the right time.
Also I think the people who have the time to build a profile and inform policy and sit on boards for the most part aren't the people who should be informing on policy. But the ones that should be shaping the industry are too busy working/value their time differently on the whole.

Yes I did! Was quite an interesting project that although it didn't uncover any real surprises here, although it's been a difficult lambing this year for various reasons so nice to see the ewes are doing their bit for the most part. looking forward to the final results

Aye I guess that’s my only gripe. There are some amazing and inspiring people in ag, but often they are over looked as they are busy, head down, arse up, grafting to build their dream. Sadly as they say, history is made by those with the time to turn up.

Sounded an interesting project. That vet is one of the best sheeo vets in the country.

 

[Gulli]

Aye I guess that’s my only gripe. There are some amazing and inspiring people in ag, but often they are over looked as they are busy, head down, arse up, grafting to build their dream. Sadly as they say, history is made by those with the time to turn up.

Sounded an interesting project. That vet is one of the best sheeo vets in the country.

Hopefully he's coming back next year to do the same thing with the goats if he can sort a project out

 

[Estate fencing.]

Allowing landowners to claim bps on rented out grass is also a disaster.

I'm not sure that has been a disaster for young people wanting to get into sheep farming, blocks of 5/20 acres that the owner is claiming the bps is how I managed to get into the job because they don't require any rent.
I am 100% a new entrant as my dad was a shepherd and owned just 30 ewes (that now I have ended up looking after for him ), its been very hard at times and after losing a fortune in 2018 when I had 1000 mule theaves to sell that were worth less than I paid for them, I had to really sit down and think what I was doing, what I decided was I was better getting the land owner on the unsecured blocks of land to buy the sheep and charge to shepherd them. I now run 450 of my own ewes plus 150 ewe hogg's and shepherd 500 ewes plus 850 ewe hogg's for 6 different people.
Hard work (and when the manger said jump I jumped immediately and said how high) got me a 5 year tenancy because I do the contract shepherding and shearing on estate that happened to have a block of land that they didn't want for there own sheep.
Iv always been a believer that if you want to farm sheep the best way in is shearing, it gets you about earning good money and seeing other people systems, if an 18 year old isn't keen to learn how to shear he/she hasn't got enough go in him/her to make it a farming there own. There's been plenty of times that when I'm up at 3 to get round sheep before and when everyone else goes to the pub after I wish I didn't have to get back to worm a bunch of lambs but sure has hell its been good for me.

 

[Jonp]

I was a new entrant at the age of 54 in 2014. Helped a local big sheep farmer working his stock and he bent over backwards to help me when I bought my first 15 ewes. Rented me ground and found space for me in his hay shed to lamb. Another farmer friend found me a small bare farm to rent a few years later and here I am with 120 ewes and 8 suckler cows. Best thing I ever done and wish that I had started when I was younger and more energetic.
My point is there are farmers out there willing to help new entrants (especially if you happened to be a builder!)

 

[glasshouse]

I'm not sure that has been a disaster for young people wanting to get into sheep farming, blocks of 5/20 acres that the owner is claiming the bps is how I managed to get into the job because they don't require any rent.
I am 100% a new entrant as my dad was a shepherd and owned just 30 ewes (that now I have ended up looking after for him ), its been very hard at times and after losing a fortune in 2018 when I had 1000 mule theaves to sell that were worth less than I paid for them, I had to really sit down and think what I was doing, what I decided was I was better getting the land owner on the unsecured blocks of land to buy the sheep and charge to shepherd them. I now run 450 of my own ewes plus 150 ewe hogg's and shepherd 500 ewes plus 850 ewe hogg's for 6 different people.
Hard work (and when the manger said jump I jumped immediately and said how high) got me a 5 year tenancy because I do the contract shepherding and shearing on estate that happened to have a block of land that they didn't want for there own sheep.
Iv always been a believer that if you want to farm sheep the best way in is shearing, it gets you about earning good money and seeing other people systems, if an 18 year old isn't keen to learn how to shear he/she hasn't got enough go in him/her to make it a farming there own. There's been plenty of times that when I'm up at 3 to get round sheep before and when everyone else goes to the pub after I wish I didn't have to get back to worm a bunch of lambs but sure has hell its been good for me.

You are correct there, but i know of plenty former new entrants who are now out of business because the landlord claimed the new bps but still demanded the same rent they were getting before on top. They either lost the ground or ran out of money.
It takes a calamity like that to let new men in unfortuneately
Same as back in 1998-2000 let new men in when thousands were ruined by the blair brown govts policies.

 

[CopperBeech]

Opportunities for sheepfarming for young people are very limited since govt is funding estates to evict farmers and let the weeds grow of plant trees
Allowing landowners to claim bps on rented out grass is also a disaster.

I'm not sure that has been a disaster for young people wanting to get into sheep farming, blocks of 5/20 acres that the owner is claiming the bps is how I managed to get into the job because they don't require any rent.
I am 100% a new entrant as my dad was a shepherd and owned just 30 ewes (that now I have ended up looking after for him ), its been very hard at times and after losing a fortune in 2018 when I had 1000 mule theaves to sell that were worth less than I paid for them, I had to really sit down and think what I was doing, what I decided was I was better getting the land owner on the unsecured blocks of land to buy the sheep and charge to shepherd them. I now run 450 of my own ewes plus 150 ewe hogg's and shepherd 500 ewes plus 850 ewe hogg's for 6 different people.
Hard work (and when the manger said jump I jumped immediately and said how high) got me a 5 year tenancy because I do the contract shepherding and shearing on estate that happened to have a block of land that they didn't want for there own sheep.
Iv always been a believer that if you want to farm sheep the best way in is shearing, it gets you about earning good money and seeing other people systems, if an 18 year old isn't keen to learn how to shear he/she hasn't got enough go in him/her to make it a farming there own. There's been plenty of times that when I'm up at 3 to get round sheep before and when everyone else goes to the pub after I wish I didn't have to get back to worm a bunch of lambs but sure has hell its been good for me.

Very good post. I don’t shear though, so maybe that’s where I’ve gone wrong.

 

[CopperBeech]

I’ve just been doing a bit more browsing of the old social media, as it’s a quiet, sunny, Sunday morning.

Id probably better say I don’t ultimately care much either way as it doesn’t effect me too much, so this is just observational musing with no real purpose

But just flicking through posts and peoples profiles - you seem to have a few different types.

- The commercial farmer. Either traditional or progressive - usually large and established.

- The cutsie smallholder with some pretty sheep and hundreds of photos of them cuddling lambs.

- And the third type which seems split in two. On one hand you have lads like that sheep game chap mentioned earlier who I have just been looking at; very social media savvy, but obviously grafts hard and has built a real thing, with the media and social stuff contributing an extra income stream. But fundamentally the lad seems to have the sheep farming bit nailed down. Then there is the other half of the split, which are the ones that slightly perplex me. It’s the type where they are new into it, 1-5 years maybe, deffo want to make a living from it, want to be commercial. Appear to not actually have anywhere near the farming operation to pay the bills, but also don’t have another job, so say have two people ‘working’ full time on 100 odd sheep, couple pigs, goats and a cow maybe. Usually six sheep dogs. Spend a lot of time posting and making content for social media, and at the same time talking about how hard it is to make it, to make a profit etc etc. Whilst feeding cake to their Shetland x llanwenog ewe gladis and her blue texel x Hampshire off spring and spending their money on a go pro.

 

[M-J-G]

Whilst i would have agreed wholeheartedly with this when i was younger (i was always jealous of the farmers sons/daughters i knew with a known path into the industry) ---i am now glad that i didn't inherit a farm .
This meant i had the freedom from tradition to do what i wanted
It also meant that i didn't have to argue with parents about how to farm
It also meant that i didn't have to wait until my parents died before i had a say in the business

Figuring succession into a farming business can be as difficult as starting with nothing i think?

Plenty of father son teams do get on fine though, although TFF seems to be a congregation point for those with daddy issues.

I know plenty of younger generations who take a business or at least part of it in their own direction and dont have to keep things traditional.

If you have a son or daughter who wants to follow in your footsteps, should you tell then they cannot and that they should go and start up from scratch because they will learn to do things in ways that you don't and that it will save them arguing with you and enable them to break from your old ways?

 

[Tim W]

Plenty of father son teams do get on fine though, although TFF seems to be a congregation point for those with daddy issues.

I know plenty of younger generations who take a business or at least part of it in their own direction and dont have to keep things traditional.

If you have a son or daughter who wants to follow in your footsteps, should you tell then they cannot and that they should go and start up from scratch because they will learn to do things in ways that you don't and that it will save them arguing with you and enable them to break from your old ways?

I agree---i know plenty of family teams that work well & have good succession plans
But being the pig headed sod i am it's a good job i was never in that position
Some farmers treat the farm as a business and get their offspring to buy them out ---seems like a good & fair idea to me?

 

[Anymulewilldo]

Family I know, very straight abs sound outfit. Old fella has 3 daughters, 1 son. Son works at home, his son is just about school leaving age and he’s farming mad. So Son has bought Mum & Dad out, swapped his house in the village as part of the deal so they are still close by. All very amicable and the daughters were in full agreement it was fair.
Old fella (72/73) was telling me a couple of months after the change over that “I retired at 5pm Friday night, at 10am Saturday morning the wife ordered me out of the house up too the farm too beg for my job back”

 

[M-J-G]

I agree---i know plenty of family teams that work well & have good succession plans
But being the pig headed sod i am it's a good job i was never in that position
Some farmers treat the farm as a business and get their offspring to buy them out ---seems like a good & fair idea to me?

In the same respect I know farmers who would love for one of their family to want to take over and it holds them from driving their business forward.

As for buying parents out, is it a totally the parents farm to sell if they didn't buy it from their parents.

As for what makes the best farmer, I've seen good and bad in all kinds of situations.

 

[StormurShepherd]

While I'm not so young in body, still so in mind, I finally started my own flock last year after all my surgeries and illness. 5 years later than planned. My biggest issue was finding suitable grazing, especially as I'm coming into it in a new area where I know no one.

I bought my electric fence kit, a little trailer and spent the rest on my sheep with an emergency fund for any critical vet/emergencies. Made enemy of the local bellend after letting her dog chase my sheep last July, and her wicked witch mate gave me grief every time she saw me at the field. Not an Ideal first four weeks in the new venture. Now have local scum smashing, moving and stealing signs I put up for dogs to be on leads as the footpath is quite popular.

I'm trying to be regenerative with minimal inputs and kit, and it's going ok so far. My dog having to retire has been an issue, and with my disabilities, it takes more time than "normal" to do stuff. I did contract lambing before another car crash put me out of work for a while. Spent a lot of the last year learning "on the job" and doing course in regenerative agriculture and holistic management.

I started this as I wanted to do something for myself, and there ain't many sheep flocks in Cheshire that need a shepherd. Not making any money yet, but I'm happy at least. I help others with their sheep where I can and have a mentor lady If I get mega stuck/have issues.

I like what Cammy does, but I can't shear with my body how it is. I share a few things on YT but its more a diary for myself than anything. If anyone watches, that's cool, if not, no problem. I post pictures on Instagram because I'm trying to market my wool further down the line, and for meat from any unsuitable breeding stock. Give my product a story, so to speak. I will also branch into commercial when having the land to do so.

While not the best way of doing things, its how things have worked out.

 

[JP1]

Been having general discussions today with a couple of people about the future of the sheep industry, some very interesting points raised to be fair.

Someone pointed out that these days we have probably more young folk wanting to get into sheep farming / shepherding than at any other time (or at least for a long time), we have more young women wanting to get into it than ever before.

This is a good thing I think ! However are there the opportunities now to expand into a viable buisness after entry ? And I mean a viable buisness farming sheep / shepherding. I would say there is a huge call for good shepherds, but most of the new entrants seem to want to run their own flocks / have their own farms (which is entirely understandable), but is this actually possible ?

This led us on to a discussion about the kind of industry we are building, or more specifically the kind of industry that young and new entrants are building or seem to want to build.

It seems a lot of new entrants have a lot of nice clothes, nice kit etc and a very small number of sheep, with what appear to be high costs - cake, creep, treats, hay, stuff, and general messing about. So assu they aren’t making much money ? Which is grand if it’s a hobby, but if you want it to be your living ?

And I know that we only see a glimmer of those who are new entrants through things like social media, but it just seems that the whole attraction is the image, the look, the freedom to not work too much, or the cute lambs. But do these folk think about things like wormer resistance, anti biotic resistance, genetics etc? Do they need to ? Is there enough money in sponsorship and stuff like that ?

Just some musings we were having whilst having a meeting on top of a hill in the sun.

About the only way in to farming right now , so I can't blame them

A few years ago it might have been outdoor sows too

Until land tenure reform and how folks carry on to continue to be active farming for IHT and sub reasons, I can't see how it will change much

It would be great if there were strides towards share farming so one can see a true career path from worker to manager to partner in a business and / or share farmer

 

[JP1]

Whilst i would have agreed wholeheartedly with this when i was younger (i was always jealous of the farmers sons/daughters i knew with a known path into the industry) ---i am now glad that i didn't inherit a farm .
This meant i had the freedom from tradition to do what i wanted
It also meant that i didn't have to argue with parents about how to farm
It also meant that i didn't have to wait until my parents died before i had a say in the business

Figuring succession into a farming business can be as difficult as starting with nothing i think?

Some of the most unhappy folks with me at college weren't those that wanted to go farming, they were the ones there because daddy wanted them there but in reality they wanted to do something else

 

[CopperBeech]

About the only way in to farming right now , so I can't blame them

A few years ago it might have been outdoor sows too

Until land tenure reform and how folks carry on to continue to be active farming for IHT and sub reasons, I can't see how it will change much

It would be great if there were strides towards share farming so one can see a true career path from worker to manager to partner in a business and / or share farmer

I’m not sure that’s true, I’m sure there are plenty of young folk making a genuine go of it ? Only we don’t see them because they aren’t self promoting ? Maybe ?

From what I can gather - share farming is a means for a wealthy land owner to still be seen as the farmer, and hence get the tax benefits and subs ?

 

[glasshouse]

I’m not sure that’s true, I’m sure there are plenty of young folk making a genuine go of it ? Only we don’t see them because they aren’t self promoting ? Maybe ?

From what I can gather - share farming is a means for a wealthy land owner to still be seen as the farmer, and hence get the tax benefits and subs ?

Share farming is a dangerous game.
The aged partner may be ok, but when dies or loses his marbles you will get screwed nine times out of ten