New information about local nature recovery and landscape recovery

[delilah]

We do generally make sure that we're engaging with a wide range of farm sizes, types, locations, ownership models etc. But on this particular case I need to check exactly what info we collected - will do and come back to you.

Thank you. The general point being, as you will be aware, it is very difficult for the smaller business to be able to get along to all these scoping sessions etc, with the inevitable consequence being that the results are skewed in favour of those whose job it is to be there on behalf of their employer.

 

[Janet Hughes Defra]

@Janet Hughes Defra
will tenant farmers be able to do the options without landlords agreement ?
I can’t see many landlords being very happy if the tenant affectively devalues their land by allowing it to rewind
or just let’s the hedges grow out for example . Not to mention arable land being re classed as permanent pasture .
Will this lead to more short term FBTs or landlords taking farms in hand .

You can enter into SFI without landlord consent; for the other schemes we'll publish the rules later this year, having worked closely with tenant farmers and other experts to make the schemes as accessible as possible for tenants along with all other farmers.

 

[Janet Hughes Defra]

@Janet Hughes Defra do the powers that be honestly think that letting rivers block up and naturaly flood the surrounding fields is a good thing ? putting back years of improvements this is what you should be rewarding actual farming i am actually getting quite depressed about the whole situation. as a tenant farmer I'm also concerned that i won't be able to access these schemes even if i wanted to !

We think that you should choose what the right things to do are on your land, and we're looking to offer a range of choices so that you can do that. We choose actions that are proven to deliver outcomes, and put those forward in schemes. It's then absolutely up to you to decide which ones you want to do.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

@Janet Hughes Defra
will tenant farmers be able to do the options without landlords agreement ?
I can’t see many landlords being very happy if the tenant affectively devalues their land by allowing it to rewind
or just let’s the hedges grow out for example . Not to mention arable land being re classed as permanent pasture .
Will this lead to more short term FBTs or landlords taking farms in hand .

Most land agents would see "rewilding" as grounds for apllying for a "bad husbandry sertificate" or, at least, grounds for applying dilapidations at the end of the tenancy I suspect....

 

[Janet Hughes Defra]

Thank you. The general point being, as you will be aware, it is very difficult for the smaller business to be able to get along to all these scoping sessions etc, with the inevitable consequence being that the results are skewed in favour of those whose job it is to be there on behalf of their employer.

Yes, I absolutely recognise that v important point - we're working to engage with as wide a range of farmers as we can possibly reach, through all sorts of channels: online forums like this, in person visits and events, markets, shows, specific engagement events on particular topics, events and engagement run by farming organisations, charities, businesses and other organisations, as well as more structured social research and engagement - there are very few people who engage in all of these, but a lot of people will engage in at least one. I'm always open to suggestions on this front and keen to talk to more farmers and persuade you to get involved one way or another. The more the better.

 

[delilah]

Yes, I absolutely recognise that v important point - we're working to engage with as wide a range of farmers as we can possibly reach, through all sorts of channels: online forums like this, in person visits and events, markets, shows, specific engagement events on particular topics, events and engagement run by farming organisations, charities, businesses and other organisations, as well as more structured social research and engagement - there are very few people who engage in all of these, but a lot of people will engage in at least one. I'm always open to suggestions on this front and keen to talk to more farmers and persuade you to get involved one way or another. The more the better.

I think you need to take a road trip. Find the smallest farms you can, drive down their drive however potholed, and ask them what the SFI needs to look like for them.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

The tricky bit is: one person's simple is another person's unworkable one size fits all approach. One person's complicated is another person's helpful range of choices. But I take your point and agree with you that whatever we do, we need to make it as straightforward as possible for as many people as possible, and that's what we're working on doing.

I would have wanted all of the flexibility to be handled "behind the scenes" and the interaction with farmers to be friendly. I would have structured a system where "case officers" dealt with farms individually helping each farm to craft a public goods delivery package that suited their situation and applied a DEFRA metric on behalf of the farm to work out the reward on offer and teh criteria for delivery. The complexity could have been kept away from the applicant that way.

Too late now though.

 

[Janet Hughes Defra]

ok all, I'm going offline now for the weekend - I'll be back here on Monday to answer any outstanding or further questions. Thanks all

 

[steveR]

I would have wanted all of the flexibility to be handled "behind the scenes" and the interaction with farmers to be friendly. I would have structured a system where "case officers" dealt with farms individually helping each farm to craft a public goods delivery package that suited their situation and applied a DEFRA metric on behalf of the farm to work out the reward on offer and teh criteria for delivery. The complexity could have been kept away from the applicant that way.

Too late now though.

Said the same sort of thing to JH back in June last year .... Severn Trent's STEPS scheme...

I usuggested a simple system, good quality adviser working 1-1 with the farmer to develop individual schemes that suit farm, farmer and funder.

 

[Grass And Grain]

You can enter into SFI without landlord consent; for the other schemes we'll publish the rules later this year, having worked closely with tenant farmers and other experts to make the schemes as accessible as possible for tenants along with all other farmers.

Could I pose a further problem. Landlords.

What are we supposed to do if they won't give us the necessary assurance of tenure for the duration of the schemes (e.g. I think it's 3 years for SFI???).

A farmer could find themselves in the situation where all his/her neighbours are getting government support, but he/she isn't.

Is there any reason why DEFRA couldn't offer these new schemes on an annual basis. I really can't afford to be disadvantaged on my rented ground vs neighbours who might have longer tenure terms.

I think this really is a big issue for many people.

The new schemes are LESS ACCESSIBLE than previous schemes, as BPS was an annual commitment. I think in an earlier post you suggested the new schemes would be MORE ACCESSIBLE.

Lots of us only have short-term rental agreements with our landlords.

I think this issue needs urgently addressing. Or can we join up to SFI for example (even though we are on 12 month terms with landlord), then leave the SFI agreement without penalty at end of year 1 or 2. If so, this option should be specifically accounted for in the terms and conditions?

Thank you.

 

[yellow belly]

I would have wanted all of the flexibility to be handled "behind the scenes" and the interaction with farmers to be friendly. I would have structured a system where "case officers" dealt with farms individually helping each farm to craft a public goods delivery package that suited their situation and applied a DEFRA metric on behalf of the farm to work out the reward on offer and teh criteria for delivery. The complexity could have been kept away from the applicant that way.

Too late now though.

To do that the cost of advisers would Make the system very costly and defra would be a acused of wasting money on delivery by the popular press

my last mid tier application by an agent cost less than 1% of the total payments

 

[Goweresque]

So lets see - £2.4bn in the pot, split equally into the 3 branches of ELMS, so £800m each. A limited number of Landscape recovery projects per year, let say 100 new ones per year. Thats £8m each.

Why do I hear the likes of the NT and RSPB (and the Duke of Westminster and James Dyson) rubbing their hands with glee?

 

[Mixedupfarmer]

Could I pose a further problem. Landlords.

What are we supposed to do if they won't give us the necessary assurance of tenure for the duration of the schemes (e.g. I think it's 3 years for SFI???).

A farmer could find themselves in the situation where all his/her neighbours are getting government support, but he/she isn't.

Is there any reason why DEFRA couldn't offer these new schemes on an annual basis. I really can't afford to be disadvantaged on my rented ground vs neighbours who might have longer tenure terms.

I think this really is a big issue for many people.

The new schemes are LESS ACCESSIBLE than previous schemes, as BPS was an annual commitment. I think in an earlier post you suggested the new schemes would be MORE ACCESSIBLE.

Lots of us only have short-term rental agreements with our landlords.

I think this issue needs urgently addressing. Or can we join up to SFI for example (even though we are on 12 month terms with landlord), then leave the SFI agreement without penalty at end of year 1 or 2. If so, this option should be specifically accounted for in the terms and conditions?

Thank you.

I have got this exact problem on much of our land. The only logical alternative is too flog the land to death, max yield with little or no P and K, and lime, sell all the straw, max out root crops, maize and wheat. Don't worry about the future, as the Landlords won't worry when they get a higher rent from the next short term tenant. FBT's are , incompatible with sustainable farming except with a few responsible forward thinking landlords.

 

[Bruce Almighty]

You can enter into SFI without landlord consent; for the other schemes we'll publish the rules later this year, having worked closely with tenant farmers and other experts to make the schemes as accessible as possible for tenants along with all other farmers.

I thought SFI was for 3 years ?
What if your landlord will only give you a one year rolling agreement ?

 

[delilah]

So lets see - £2.4bn in the pot, split equally into the 3 branches of ELMS, so £800m each. A limited number of Landscape recovery projects per year, let say 100 new ones per year. Thats £8m each.

Why do I hear the likes of the NT and RSPB (and the Duke of Westminster and James Dyson) rubbing their hands with glee?

30% of the money for 3% of the land. It wont happen, I did say some months ago that LR wont see the light of day, even in the parallel universe that ELMS lives in there is no justification for it.

 

[DrWazzock]

Well I am putting 5 acres out of 200 acres into various things including pollinator mix, bird seed, tussocky grass margins along watercourses and keeping our small wood managed for wildlife.
Not bothering with any scheme. I’ll say I will be down about £1000 profit, but maybe less as the area will be awkward corners and will mean I can spray closer to the edge of crop thanks to buffers.
I see those conservation areas as an extension to my garden, a pleasure really that I can manage with a free hand without anybody at all breathing down my neck. No satellite mapping problems, no hanging on the helpline, no days spent on forms and applications or waiting for some stupid deadline or meeting some criteria.
Let those who want to rewild their farm get on with it. I really don’t envy them. Pay them a million if you like. Couldn’t care less. It’s just not worth the strings attached, the hassle or the grief in my view.
Onwards and upwards as a small commercial farmer. Goodbye RPA forever in 4 years time.

 

[DrWazzock]

30% of the money for 3% of the land. It wont happen, I did say some months ago that LR wont see the light of day, even in the parallel universe that ELMS lives in there is no justification for it.

Think what we could get done if we spent half the mental energy we spend fretting over DEFRAs latest wheeze on actual farming.
I no longer hang on to their every word. We need to cut loose from nanny and get on.
I know exactly who the latest schemes are intended to benefit, namely huge landowners with shooting and amenity estates. Well my idea of a fun day out is a day on the beet harvester on a frost lifting 100 ton of lovely clean beet, not walking up a hedge side flapping a bag waiting for a pheasant to jump out for some hooray to blast at.
Let them, like beast in the barn, bust their guts on taxpayers money. Won’t do them any good in the end.

 

[egbert]

ok all, I'm going offline now for the weekend - I'll be back here on Monday to answer any outstanding or further questions. Thanks all

and there it is in a nutshell.

 

[delilah]

Think what we could get done if we spent half the mental energy we spend fretting over DEFRAs latest wheeze on actual farming.
I no longer hang on to their every word. We need to cut loose from nanny and get on.
I know exactly who the latest schemes are intended to benefit, namely huge landowners with shooting and amenity estates. Well my idea of a fun day out is a day on the beet harvester on a frost lifting 100 ton of lovely clean beet, not walking up a hedge side flapping a bag waiting for a pheasant to jump out for some hooray to blast at.
Let them, like beast in the barn, bust their guts on taxpayers money. Won’t do them any good in the end.

I can see, totally, the argument for letting them just get on with lining their pockets. However, I can see, even more so, the need to get this money diverted to where it is most needed.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

I can see, totally, the argument for letting them just get on with lining their pockets. However, I can see, even more so, the need to get this money diverted to where it is most needed.

Do you mean farmers or the NT / Wildlife Trusts / Rivers Trusts?

Arguably, it's high time for us all to look hard at our business models and rebuild them around profitability, not output and shiny toys.