NHS and disappearing doctors

DaveGrohl

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Cumbria

Telegraph;​


Fewer than half of trainee GPs go on to work full time for the NHS​

High dropout rate has left health service increasingly reliant on foreign doctors to fill vacancies, report warns​

By Michael Searles, Health Correspondent27 September 2023 • 11:59pm
Fewer than half of trainee GPs go on to work for the NHS full time, a new report has revealed.

The equivalent of 1,419 full-time GPs joined the health service in 2020 from a pool of 2,837 UK graduates who started training three years earlier, analysis by the Nuffield Trust has found.

Some of that number were made up of multiple doctors working part-time hours, meaning fewer than half were actually working full time.

The report said a “leaky pipeline” of undergraduate and foundation training had “failed significantly to provide the UK doctors needed to fill GP training posts”. And it warned the health service is increasingly reliant on foreign doctors to fill GP vacancies as the NHS battles record waiting lists.

The Health Foundation think tank estimates that there is a shortage of 4,200 GPs in England, which could double within ten years. It calculated that by adding together all the contracted hours of new GPs who worked full time and part time , they accumulated the equivalent full-time working hours of just 1,419 GPs.

A total of 2,267 doctors joined the General Medical Council’s GP register in 2020, which means their combined NHS output was just 63 per cent of what it would be if they all chose to work full time for the health service.

Around 600 trainees did not join the register at all, and while the think tank did not know why, it speculated that some may not have completed their training while others were working for “defence services” such as the army.

The NHS long-term workforce plan says it wants to up the number of training places for GPs by half.

However, Dr Billy Palmer, author of the report and health fellow at Nuffield Trust, likened the plan to “turning on the tap without filling in the holes”.

The report, titled Waste Not, Want Not, found that the number of new GPs joining the NHS was “unmoved” despite previous efforts to increase training places by a third in 2015.

While it said information was limited, it found fully qualified GPs who did not join the NHS were going to private companies such as Bupa or taking on other public sector roles, such as in the Ministry of Defence or the Armed Forces.

It said the number of GPs joining the register had fallen to its lowest rate since the data were made available in 2017.

“We have become increasingly reliant on doctors who went to medical school abroad to fill such positions – nearly one in five of GP training posts were filled by overseas doctors in 2017, which increased to around two in five in 2021,” the report revealed.

Incentives like £20,000 bonuses to work in “hard to recruit” areas had failed, it said.

‘Workforce crisis’​

Prof Kamila Hawthorne, chair of the Royal College of GPs, said there were “952 fewer fully qualified full-time GPs than in 2019”.

She added that there was a “workforce crisis” and said general practice was “withering on the vine after more than a decade of under investment”.

Nuffield’s analysis of NHS workforce data also found that one in four of all doctors leave the NHS within two years, while after three years one in three have left.

The think tank said “high dropout rates” among all staff, including doctors, nurses and other clinical professions, who were either still training or new to the NHS was “wasteful” and “ultimately erodes the NHS’s ability to deliver safe and high-quality care”.

Around one in eight nurses drop out of training, while one in five who start NHS work leave within two years, it said.

Dr Palmer said “ploughing more staff into training without thinking about why they leave” was “enormously short-sighted”.

“The NHS has outlined plans to double training places but if we don’t address students leaving courses there is going to be a lot of waste,” he said. “You can’t just turn on the tap and not fill in all the holes.”

‘Leaky’ pipeline​

The report said: “Aside from the ability to fill training places, the GP speciality training is also a ‘leaky’ pipeline, in terms of the proportion who go on to complete training and participate in NHS services.”

The think tank is proposing that student debt is written off in a phased way based on time spent working for the health service, particularly given that just 30 per cent of nurses will pay off their debt in full.

While its proposals look to improve the “unacceptable levels of attrition” among nurses and midwives in particular, it said similar schemes could be applied to doctors.

More than £5 billion a year is spent on medical and nursing training with half of this going on doctors.

“Our proposal to write off student debt is affordable, credible and could be implemented straight away,” Dr Palmer said.

A Government spokesman said: “We’ve made significant progress in growing the workforce with record numbers of staff working in the NHS. The first ever NHS Long Term Workforce Plan, backed by over £2.4 billion in government funding, will deliver the biggest expansion of staff training in NHS history, retain more talented people and harness cutting-edge technology.

“We are working closely with NHS England to reduce student attrition rates and ensure they are supported whilst in training. This includes a training grant for eligible nursing, midwifery and allied health profession students of at least £5,000 a year, alongside support for childcare and certain expenses.”
 

Goweresque

Member
Location
North Wilts
And inevitably they meet the man of their dreams and suddenly go from not wanting children to wanting them.

And either leave the profession entirely, or work part time. And this is even more pronounced in GP work, because female medical graduates disproportionately become GPs as opposed to hospital specialists, which tend to attract more men. So GP surgeries are stuffed full of female GPs working part time, constantly taking maternity leave, and then leaving the profession entirely well before retirement age, meaning there is a massive shortage of GPs. Its all highly predictable, but entirely ignored because its not politically correct to admit it.
 

Cheesehead

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Kent
It is also an issue in a lot of other countries too I believe in Canada some of their hospitals are closing at the weekend.

One of the most frustrating things here are those that treat the NHS as free training one of my brother's former colleagues really wound him up as I believe she was Indian and her husband who was training to be a doctor was Portuguese boasted how as soon as he was done training they were going to Australia because they could make more money there when questioned wholly he didn't train there then they were told you had to pay there so why would they do that when we would pay for his degree and then pay him to train as a doctor. It a bit like Universities that prefer overseas students as they can charge more only to find themselves in financial trouble because they are also the ones most likely not to pay and leave them unable to collect on it.
 

kfpben

Member
Location
Mid Hampshire
I went on a stag do last year for a friend of mine who’s an Army doctor.
There were around ten guys on it from his medical school. Only 1 was an NHS doctor, a couple had gone private, most were working for pharmaceutical companies or in the City playing with numbers.

I asked one why he stopped being a GP after three years- he said he been offered £100k a year more than he was paid as a GP to work in financial services in the City.
 
It is also an issue in a lot of other countries too I believe in Canada some of their hospitals are closing at the weekend.

One of the most frustrating things here are those that treat the NHS as free training one of my brother's former colleagues really wound him up as I believe she was Indian and her husband who was training to be a doctor was Portuguese boasted how as soon as he was done training they were going to Australia because they could make more money there when questioned wholly he didn't train there then they were told you had to pay there so why would they do that when we would pay for his degree and then pay him to train as a doctor. It a bit like Universities that prefer overseas students as they can charge more only to find themselves in financial trouble because they are also the ones most likely not to pay and leave them unable to collect on it.

Go steady on there mind- foreign students who come to the UK to study medicine (or any other course for that matter) have to pay much greater fees. They also are obliged to complete the 2 year post graduate foundation program before they will be given full medical registration. In reality a lot of them will work in the UK because they have come to the UK because they like living and studying here.

I think the main issue is that if you begin on the GP training pathway, which takes 3 years, you are not actually paid a great deal of money whilst doing it. The NHS/government knows you are a captive audience and can't go anywhere for the 3 years as you need to complete them. Guess who will be working at night, weekends and bank holidays as well?

So recently graduated doctors either choose to work abroad (Australia recognise all UK medical qualifications and the UK recognises basically anyone's qualification- try the same stunt if you want to work in the USA- not a chance in hell- you have to pay to do their exams), or, you can work as a locum F3 doctor, work daytime shifts only for an agency and get paid more money.

This website explains all.


Whilst I have some genuine concerns about the UK poaching doctors from basically everyone and anyone, potentially leaving other countries short of them, I do feel on balance it does benefit the UK health providers because you get a much broader range of expertise working in it and they will have seen diseases or ailments that are virtually unheard of in the UK. This is also important because the UK is a very diverse place and health services should reflect the population it serves.

And lastly, University students not paying their fees- is a surefire way to get yourself kicked off the course or be failed. They aren't daft- it's part of the learner agreement.
 
And inevitably they meet the man of their dreams and suddenly go from not wanting children to wanting them.

I work with young people every working day. They just aren't wired up the same way as you or I. They want more out of life, it's not a male/female thing, it's a generational thing. The fact a sizeable portion of students are from private school backgrounds makes no difference either- they are paid the same at the end of it as they are all trained to the same level.

The idea that doctors are all working 7 days a week doing 90 or 100 hours a week is false- it's been done away with years ago. A truck driver can't work more than a set number of hours, why would a doctor be AOK to do as they wished?
 
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Bongodog

Member
I read this in the Telegraph earlier, I really couldn't understand that the author seemed surprised by the results, I;ve known for a long time that Doctors choose the GP route as its a day time only week day occupation with a relatively high pay rate making part time working possible. Also there is always lots of shifts available as an out of hours doctor at very attractive rates.
 
I read this in the Telegraph earlier, I really couldn't understand that the author seemed surprised by the results, I;ve known for a long time that Doctors choose the GP route as its a day time only week day occupation with a relatively high pay rate making part time working possible. Also there is always lots of shifts available as an out of hours doctor at very attractive rates.

But it takes 3 years to get to GP level and in that timeframe you are stuck in that set system and working the evenings, the nights and the weekends. It is not a daytime only training pathway.

Not just any doctor can work as an out of hours GP, either.
 

Bongodog

Member
But it takes 3 years to get to GP level and in that timeframe you are stuck in that set system and working the evenings, the nights and the weekends. It is not a daytime only training pathway.

Not just any doctor can work as an out of hours GP, either.
[/QUOTE]

I don't doubt the training involves out of hours work, but the question was about qualified GP's they certainly don't have any compulsion to, Also a quick 30 seconds reveals that of the 3 years 18 months is hospital based and 18 months at GP practices, thus half of it is daytime only.

As to out of hours doctors, I haven't come across any lately but a few years ago in this area they were all also employed at local GP surgeries.
 
But it takes 3 years to get to GP level and in that timeframe you are stuck in that set system and working the evenings, the nights and the weekends. It is not a daytime only training pathway.

Not just any doctor can work as an out of hours GP, either.

I don't doubt the training involves out of hours work, but the question was about qualified GP's they certainly don't have any compulsion to, Also a quick 30 seconds reveals that of the 3 years 18 months is hospital based and 18 months at GP practices, thus half of it is daytime only.

As to out of hours doctors, I haven't come across any lately but a few years ago in this area they were all also employed at local GP surgeries.
[/QUOTE]

Out of hours was negotiated out of and the service is provided by a third organisation who probably all use locum services for the job. Who you will get turn up at midnight on a Tuesday is entirely at random. A number of GPs also tend to work in the emergency departments etc on a similar basis, to keep their acute skills up to date.
 

HatsOff

Member
Mixed Farmer
GPs I know work part time in the GP surgery then do additional hours in the hospital or as locum cover.

Presumably when they get to management level they'll need to knock the out of hours work on the head.
 

Muck Spreader

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Limousin
What a clueless tit :banghead:

Thousands of foreign doctors ‘could be hired in a bid to break NHS strikes’​

“Radical plans to recruit thousands of foreign doctors are being drawn up by ministers in a bid to break NHS strikes. Health Secretary Steve Barclay has ordered officials to investigate the potential for hiring huge numbers of temporary doctors in the coming months to limit the damage caused by walkouts. Mr Barclay is planning to ask the General Medical Council to fast-track the process for registering doctors to work in the UK, with the aim that they could begin work early in the new year. He has dubbed the plan the ‘Ronald Reagan project’, in reference to the former US President’s controversial 1981 decision to hire thousands of air traffic controllers to end a debilitating strike.” – Daily Mail
 

Hindsight

Member
Location
Lincolnshire
What a clueless tit :banghead:

Thousands of foreign doctors ‘could be hired in a bid to break NHS strikes’​

“Radical plans to recruit thousands of foreign doctors are being drawn up by ministers in a bid to break NHS strikes. Health Secretary Steve Barclay has ordered officials to investigate the potential for hiring huge numbers of temporary doctors in the coming months to limit the damage caused by walkouts. Mr Barclay is planning to ask the General Medical Council to fast-track the process for registering doctors to work in the UK, with the aim that they could begin work early in the new year. He has dubbed the plan the ‘Ronald Reagan project’, in reference to the former US President’s controversial 1981 decision to hire thousands of air traffic controllers to end a debilitating strike.” – Daily Mail

Better set aside a few Billions in the medical negligence pot of cash.
 

HatsOff

Member
Mixed Farmer
What a clueless tit :banghead:

Thousands of foreign doctors ‘could be hired in a bid to break NHS strikes’​

“Radical plans to recruit thousands of foreign doctors are being drawn up by ministers in a bid to break NHS strikes. Health Secretary Steve Barclay has ordered officials to investigate the potential for hiring huge numbers of temporary doctors in the coming months to limit the damage caused by walkouts. Mr Barclay is planning to ask the General Medical Council to fast-track the process for registering doctors to work in the UK, with the aim that they could begin work early in the new year. He has dubbed the plan the ‘Ronald Reagan project’, in reference to the former US President’s controversial 1981 decision to hire thousands of air traffic controllers to end a debilitating strike.” – Daily Mail
Barmy.

The government can't deny the pay has been eroded, doctors pay has not kept up with other public sector workers (especially MPs), average private sector and even other NHS colleagues.

Why don't they negotiate multiple years of above inflation pay rises to put them back to where they were without a sudden shock rise in the pay bill?
 

Lowland1

Member
Mixed Farmer
Want to sort out Doctors?
The first thing is to stop believing they are some form of demigod. They are the swotty kids from school not some great geniuses. They are the ones who were good at remembering things not the ones who were good at thinking for themselves. Reduce the qualifications and reduce the time required to study for a medical degree. It’s 2023 you don’t need to remember the symptoms for dengue fever you can google them. Obviously there’s going to be more women in medicine than men because they study harder at school it won’t make them better surgeons because they made better revision tables than the boys. I’ve got two doctor sister in laws they have zero common sense. It’s time to shake up the medical profession and the best way of doing it is dispensing with the belief that they are better than the rest of us. Vets however are much cleverer and don’t have to belittle their patients.
 

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