A very good , "soil consultant" friend of ours that lives in Saskatoon ,Canada has been to the above countries to advise some potential investors on the agricultural potential of the countries mentioned. His findings were as Brisel mentioned (re lack of infastructure and corruption!!!),BUT also huge areas of those countries soil have very serious salinity problems as in parts of Australia,a problem which I do not think uk farmers are familiar with.
Occasionally direct drilling not rectifying soil structure, drainage ?
- Thread starter Pilatus
- Start date
A very good , "soil consultant" friend of ours that lives in Saskatoon ,Canada has been to the above countries to advise some potential investors on the agricultural potential of the countries mentioned. His findings were as Brisel mentioned (re lack of infastructure and corruption!!!),BUT also huge areas of those countries soil have very serious salinity problems as in parts of Australia,a problem which I do not think uk farmers are familiar with.
yellow belly
Member
- Location
- south west lincolnshire
wet areas in fields need careful investigation making presumptions leads to wrong solutions
first soil type and subsoil drainage if it needs drainage clay land or water table levels this needs sorting what ever cultivations in some years cultivations can hide an underlieing problem
if drainage is working but slowly then is compaction below the surface and cause by non tram line traffic
sort this first
on moleable land is gravelled drains or short runs to the ditch mole drain every 4 to 6 years
if the area are small and localised then double the no of moles ie 1 m apart
mole with a twin lwg behind each tractor wheel if possible
a single leg can leave wheel compaction at 2.5 m spacing
many farms may be tempted to subsoil because they do not have a moler imho this is the worst option for the notill system to work
when we did a full cultivated system the best yields cam from fields when the moleing was kept upto date
this was also the case for burn and mintill subsoiling without moleing was never as good
if the wet place is because there is a previous cultivated pan then subsoiling is needed but this sort of pan will not have developed if the land has been subsoiled is a cultivation system
surface compaction because of traffic is the moat likely cause of standing water not getting away after a dery week
on heavy land I do not worry about seeing water standing after it has rained it takes time for drainage to work especially when we get a inch a week or more for a month
if moleing is regular early harvested fields with no crop no wheeling very rarely stand water ie over winter setaside in the day and now cover crop or stubble into spring crop
first soil type and subsoil drainage if it needs drainage clay land or water table levels this needs sorting what ever cultivations in some years cultivations can hide an underlieing problem
if drainage is working but slowly then is compaction below the surface and cause by non tram line traffic
sort this first
on moleable land is gravelled drains or short runs to the ditch mole drain every 4 to 6 years
if the area are small and localised then double the no of moles ie 1 m apart
mole with a twin lwg behind each tractor wheel if possible
a single leg can leave wheel compaction at 2.5 m spacing
many farms may be tempted to subsoil because they do not have a moler imho this is the worst option for the notill system to work
when we did a full cultivated system the best yields cam from fields when the moleing was kept upto date
this was also the case for burn and mintill subsoiling without moleing was never as good
if the wet place is because there is a previous cultivated pan then subsoiling is needed but this sort of pan will not have developed if the land has been subsoiled is a cultivation system
surface compaction because of traffic is the moat likely cause of standing water not getting away after a dery week
on heavy land I do not worry about seeing water standing after it has rained it takes time for drainage to work especially when we get a inch a week or more for a month
if moleing is regular early harvested fields with no crop no wheeling very rarely stand water ie over winter setaside in the day and now cover crop or stubble into spring crop
yellow belly
Member
- Location
- south west lincolnshire
the above mentions clay content often the subsoil has more clay than the top soil which is the analysed soil sample
I have found that moles fail after a very dry year when the subsoil dries out and then a wet winter causes them to block up
I have found that moles fail after a very dry year when the subsoil dries out and then a wet winter causes them to block up
- Location
- Lincolnshire
Moling is fine where you have flat or better slightly sloping surface to a ditch.
But there is a danger of the moles causing water to accumulate in low spots of the field actually worsening ponding.
The other thing to consider is damage to underdrains. A few years back I relaid a headland main on some rented land that had been cut every 2m by a subsoiler or mole plough running too deep.
I also have the problem of inconsistent soil type. Some parts are sand all the way down, some parts clay all the down, some parts clay over sand, some sand over clay. The mole will work through the clay but collapse in the sand bring water to it and creating a bog there.
The best I can do is subsoil when it's dry and try to go deep enough to go through the porous fill but no so deep as to cut the drains. Most of our drains have a minimum 24" cover so I reckon 17" is as deep as I dare go, as long as I am cracking and heaving at that depth otherwise I am just creating more compaction and smearing from underneath. Is it ever dry enough at 17" to avoid smearing? Hardly. Which begs the question if subsoiling is ever useful or feasible.
I am getting to the point of just tickling the surface if it needs it to create enough tilth for the seed and just hoping that roots, manure and worms will sort the problem out.
But there is a danger of the moles causing water to accumulate in low spots of the field actually worsening ponding.
The other thing to consider is damage to underdrains. A few years back I relaid a headland main on some rented land that had been cut every 2m by a subsoiler or mole plough running too deep.
I also have the problem of inconsistent soil type. Some parts are sand all the way down, some parts clay all the down, some parts clay over sand, some sand over clay. The mole will work through the clay but collapse in the sand bring water to it and creating a bog there.
The best I can do is subsoil when it's dry and try to go deep enough to go through the porous fill but no so deep as to cut the drains. Most of our drains have a minimum 24" cover so I reckon 17" is as deep as I dare go, as long as I am cracking and heaving at that depth otherwise I am just creating more compaction and smearing from underneath. Is it ever dry enough at 17" to avoid smearing? Hardly. Which begs the question if subsoiling is ever useful or feasible.
I am getting to the point of just tickling the surface if it needs it to create enough tilth for the seed and just hoping that roots, manure and worms will sort the problem out.
- Location
- Lincolnshire
Anyone else found that old style tile drains seem to end up almost watertight and won't let water in between them due to silt/clay sediment filling the gaps? They also get sealed over by a clay layer above them fairly quickly. After digging up and relaying they work well for a few years then slow down again. Wish the whole farm had been done with perforated plastic and more depth of backfill had been used. Many times have investigated wet areas to find it dry underneath with clear drains running nothing.
There is a vast amount of work there to remedy these problems but unfortunately no money to pay for it!
There is a vast amount of work there to remedy these problems but unfortunately no money to pay for it!
Ruston3w
Member
- Location
- south suffolk
And also have you noticed how those beneficial deep roots still manage to find a way in?
- Location
- Lincolnshire
Yes, they like the mixed and loosened soil trench left by the draining machine. Not so keen on the solid blue clay subsoil either side. Tree roots particularly seem to like finding their way into junctions round the edge of the fields where the drains meet the main header.
- Location
- Lincolnshire
The roots prefer the section that has been cultivated by the trencher to a depth of 1 metre. 
doesn't that tell you something?The roots prefer the section that has been cultivated by the trencher to a depth of 1 metre.
yellow belly
Member
- Location
- south west lincolnshire
In some conditions in some fields the old drains show up as green lines
Particularly in fields not drained in the last 100 years
Occasionally the moling lines also show up
In water logged fields the worms will most likely survive better where the old drains run or the mole lines were drawn
The question for me is do Victorian drainage systems less than 10m spacing need Victorian cultivation systems ploughing regularly
Modern backfill drains more than 20 m spacing need moling regularly
Particularly in fields not drained in the last 100 years
Occasionally the moling lines also show up
In water logged fields the worms will most likely survive better where the old drains run or the mole lines were drawn
The question for me is do Victorian drainage systems less than 10m spacing need Victorian cultivation systems ploughing regularly
Modern backfill drains more than 20 m spacing need moling regularly
is the fact that this is visible not an indication that plants like tilled soil and that no-till on land requiring moles and gravel-backfill drains is a no-no?? surely I'm not alone in thinking this??
Louis Mc
Member
- Location
- Meath, Ireland
Drains show up in plOughed fields too so no
- Location
- Welshpool Powys
Don’t forget land drainage systems need maintenance
Jet regularly to keep them in good condition.
Mole ploughing has its place on heavy land and works really well.
Once the fissures close up in clay water cannot find the land drains so subsoiling problem areas will help.
Deep rooted plants in covers like tillage radish also Work.
Jet regularly to keep them in good condition.
Mole ploughing has its place on heavy land and works really well.
Once the fissures close up in clay water cannot find the land drains so subsoiling problem areas will help.
Deep rooted plants in covers like tillage radish also Work.
yellow belly
Member
- Location
- south west lincolnshire
this year I see drains and moling/subsoiling showing up on land (not mine ) that had no crop last year and was fully cultivated
on similar land with wheat notilled cannot see any drainage or moleing lines
this year here fields have drained well within a couple of days of rain the drains virtually stop this often is the case from a dry period up to Christmas then weter in jan to mid march
my wettest fields are where there was no crop last year steward ship summer fallow
in previous generation they would double plough fallow land partly to control couch but to dry out the land for the following winter crop
bare land setaside that was ploughed in june worked wel if it was wet enough in September to get the crop growing but was always a poorer yield especially in a dry autumn
on my notilled heavy land that is moled regularly has no problems where the drainage is good and we have kept of when it is wet
the wet areas headlands heavier wet places are no worse under notill than when it was ploughed or under the subsoiler disc system
when it is wet wet land is wet whatever you do moling the year before always helps what ever the system extra drains is the best solution