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Pasture, Soil and Vegetarianism Info

Discussion in 'Holistic Farming' started by haulmblower, Dec 20, 2017.

  1. haulmblower

    haulmblower Member

    Location:
    Staffordshire
    Crofter64 and Kiwi Pete like this.
  2. haulmblower

    haulmblower Member

    Location:
    Staffordshire
    According to the podcast the human body's stomach is not capable of digesting enough nutrients from plants to regenerate our cells. Our only gut flora that can do this is in the bowel when it's too little too late.
    That's why cows have 4 stomachs.
    Vegetarians have misunderstood or have perhaps been mislead by the famous people who visit India and think they only eat fruit and veg. They may if that is all they have access to. But if they live inland they eat meat that is why the cow is sacred. If they live by the coast they eat fish.

    She also says industrial arable agriculture is worse than keeping livestock.
    There is stuff about locking up carbon too.

    You all probably know more than in the podcast but I thought it may be useful for helping educate the less knowledgeable.
     
  3. Kiwi Pete

    Kiwi Pete Member

    Location:
    Owaka, New Zealand
    I have had many Facebook battles on the subject with animal rights folk, they just don't seem to appreciate that not all parts of the planet will grow foods that humans can use, to the same level of efficiency that's possible with ruminant grazing... nor that the pulses and legumes people would need to survive on this theoretical vegetarian planet do not grow in enough areas to support our population, no matter how many plastic tunnels we can weave out of flax, or how many solar ships cart things across oceans.... it isn't feasible to save our planet this way.

    Nor do they want to hear the truth, much easier to get shouty...

    It's not really much of a stretch to see that the best thing for our planet is to hide the keys and leave it covered up as much as we possibly can - even farmers are in denial that this is factually correct - so we as a species are in trouble.
    Plenty on here fall straight into the "oh but we can't do it here" defense the moment you suggest that there are more efficient ways of food production so.... our best hope is to evaluate and question our actions as opposed to just crack on with doing what has worked in the past.

    The past isn't where we're headed.
     
  4. haulmblower

    haulmblower Member

    Location:
    Staffordshire
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  5. Blaithin

    Blaithin Member

    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    You might like this group @haulmblower https://www.facebook.com/groups/217698068580760/

    They like to say they don't bash Vegan's more than they actually don't bash Vegans LOL But if you can get past that, there are a lot of people that post good articles on similar things as your podcast.

    I was surprised when, years and years ago, a very intelligent friend of mine went Vegetarian/Vegan (that wasn't the surprise :LOL:). It lead to discussions of course, and similarly to this one, he said our digestive system wasn't geared to meat like a carnivores, it was closer to a herbivores. I disagreed and said no, our digestive system is that of an omnivore. He'd never heard that term... For a smart individual that was a let down :ROFLMAO:

    In regards to arable farming, and I'm always hesitant to say this as around the area I live, arable is the industry and it's where I work, but I absolutely cannot STAND the current model of it. But then I'm not a fan of the commercial livestock model either. It seems everyone and their dog tosses around the term sustainable now a days, but the current arable practices (and many livestock) just aren't sustainable. Look how much nitrogen and crud has to be put into the soil to carry crops? Even when crop rotation is used. We've sucked the soil dry and are only truly realizing how badly. Monocropping is just a disaster to the ecosystem. The environment thrives on diversity and crop fields don't offer that. Here, where fields are on average at least 160 acres, you can't fail to notice it. Walk into the middle of a wheat field and look around for other organisms. You might see some wild oats depending on the spray schedule, but that's about it. Now walk 20 feet into even an over grazed cattle pasture. You'll see a variety of grasses, weeds, probably shrubs, trees, flowers, birds, maybe bigger mammals, maybe even some rodents or at least signs of rodents. You only notice these things on the edges of arable fields, or passing through them sometimes. The problem is even worse in round up ready crops.

    Yet when you bring up such happenings to AR folk or Vegetarians, they just don't seem to get it. A photo of a field of waves of wheat just isn't as sensational or damning as a video of slaughtering livestock. They are focused on the life of the individual animal, not on the health of the ecosystem. This is why the support of regenerative Ag and livestock is such a passion of mine to learn and implement. It helps promote the health of the entire ecosystem and all the organisms living in it.

    I once read a study of an organic farmer who used multiple plants in his field for companion planting. I can't remember for sure which plants. While his yields were down in each individual product, his overall yield per acre was through the roof. Higher by far than if he'd just planted one plant and carried it along. However you run into issues with this because you almost need to harvest by hand as plants ripen at different times and it can be hard to use current equipment on such set ups. Personally, this is why I would love GMO's to focus on time to ripeness so that a few different plant species could more successfully be grown together and harvested at the same time. If canola could support the weight of peas and both were ripe at the same time, then they could both benefit the soil health and growth of one another. Then equipment would also have to be altered to allow for simultaneous harvesting... but these are the types of research advances I'd like to see, instead of new chemical advancements.
     
  6. haulmblower

    haulmblower Member

    Location:
    Staffordshire
    Thank you for taking the time to write such an informative reply @Blaithin

    I have written and deleted a whole lot of questions as I think the answers may be in farmer Roy's thread. If the answers fit my idea I may have a hare brained plan that could make harvesting easier.

    Merry Christmas

    Rich
     
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  7. haulmblower

    haulmblower Member

    Location:
    Staffordshire
    Screenshot_2018-01-04-00-55-54.png I've just bought this off Amazon.
    I read up to the words 'regenerative agriculture' and thought I'd post it here.
     
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  8. Crofter64

    Crofter64 Member

    Location:
    Eastern Canada
    I read it. Good ammo/ info when talking to vegans. They are so superior. Drive me nuts.
     
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  9. Kiwi Pete

    Kiwi Pete Member

    Location:
    Owaka, New Zealand
    Wouldn't hurt if a few "oh but we aren't set up for livestock" arable farmers took note that there is a considerable difference between animal effects and ploughing in manure :whistle:
    Namely, enhanced carbon flows and preservation of soil habitat... to name a few.... :)
     
  10. haulmblower

    haulmblower Member

    Location:
    Staffordshire
    Hello
    I don't bother arguing on a keyboard, they can all think and type faster than I can.

    I've spoken to a few in real life they gave up meat mainly because of carefully edited videos.

    I try to explain about the need for livestock for soils and it does appear to slow them down.
     
  11. haulmblower

    haulmblower Member

    Location:
    Staffordshire
    Hi Pete

    We borrow cattle and sheep from a linked holding nearby.
    But spud ground still gets muck ploughed in
     
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  12. Blaithin

    Blaithin Member

    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    I like cultivating my little colony of dung beetles.

    They take that poop into the soil faster than I can and use much less fuel!
     
  13. Kiwi Pete

    Kiwi Pete Member

    Location:
    Owaka, New Zealand
    Nothing wrong with either, I do have issues with the notions that bags and loads of :poop: are a direct and "better" substitute for the real thing :)
    I can also see a bright future for the contract farmer in UK agriculture, to enhance cropping systems, as the thumbscrews are wound in on segregation-type methods.

    A great many of the worlds issues with combineables are down to livestock deficiency, and that is all, whether it is wearing a label of holistic farming or traditional, or whatever.... the human race simply has a short future without ruminants involved in the food supply landscape.
    Seems a waste not to eat them when they get old :hungry::hungry:
     
  14. haulmblower

    haulmblower Member

    Location:
    Staffordshire
    It's all a bit hippy though isn't it this Holistic.

    All the neighbouring farms can see what the others are doing here. So no one wants to be first at trying something 'New' even though their great grandfathers had enormous success with it.

    Oops forgot the :eek::eek::eek: haha :joyful::joyful::joyful:
     
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  15. Kiwi Pete

    Kiwi Pete Member

    Location:
    Owaka, New Zealand
    Do you worm your livestock?
    Possibly worthy of another thread, but have noticed just how fast the soil here "eats" compared to other nearby properties with drenching programmes in place.
    Not saying I never would, but try to mimic things that just happen naturally, it becomes apparent that it is cost effective to do so. 20180316_125129.jpg
    like, grazing bigs and littles, not a closed or breeding herd here but I run the calves with the steers from a week old for immunity reasons.
     
  16. Kiwi Pete

    Kiwi Pete Member

    Location:
    Owaka, New Zealand
    That's a very good point, I was just explaining yesterday how I got "started" with this style of farming.
    -Only the labels are new, the principles are older than cultivations and civilisations.

    I just always ask "what happens in the future when this is banned and that no longer works" which is why most of it, as you say, comes from history - with a little help from the present - for the future!

    So much wailing about how hard it is, how narrow the margins are, how long the water sits on the soil - nobody questions the reasons why it is so.
    (fudgement of the soil)
     
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  17. haulmblower

    haulmblower Member

    Location:
    Staffordshire
    I remember in school aged 13 learning about crop rotation and livestock manure on fields.
    We had school visits to a farm I can still see the farmer's face explaining how simple his method of farming was. Everything he needed was on his farm he only had to shuffle it about.

    When I look at what goes on today even I can see its over complicated some folks have just lost sight of what its all about.
     
  18. Crofter64

    Crofter64 Member

    Location:
    Eastern Canada
    I have not wormed my sheep in over 10 years. The cattle ,never. I farm on very fertile bottom land. My neighbours are either dairy farmers or ex- dairy farmers. Either way they all grow corn and beans. I grow grass and I use management intensive grazing from May till November ( basically the non snow months) to harvest it. Moving the cattle every day to fresh grass and the sheep twice a week, following both with chickens I have had few parasite problems.
    I have never fed grain to my ruminants.
    Until last summer I had very few health issues- but the spring and summer were wet and cold and my animals suffered. This year is not shaping up too well either.
    Although I do not worm my animals, I don’t find that the manure disappears as quickly as I think it should unless the chickens tear the pats apart first.
     
  19. Blaithin

    Blaithin Member

    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    I don't really have a worming protocol, no. The problem I run into is parental notions of how things have always been done, so they must be continued that way. And lice.

    Eventually I'd like to purchase a microscope and run my own fecals. I don't feel worming should be done unless there is a significant worm load there. Same with lice, if they aren't there in the numbers, why use pour on? I even bought a lice comb to use to that effect this year however when spring shedding started hitting, parental figure dug out the ivomec and went to town... If I could rig up one of those brushes like dairies have but without power and maybe a DE or Sulphur mix to help the cows scratch but also stay on top of any potential lice issues. Something to think on.

    I've noticed that the cow patties don't seem to last too long, especially when compared to the horse poo piles. For some reason horse poo doesn't seem as palatable to the bugs? I just assume because it's drier. This summer I want to try the cotton undies experiment in a couple of places around the acreage as well as maybe ask a couple of the local arable guys if I can use their fields (Excuse me sir, may I bury some underwear in your field? :ROFLMAO:) I may just also do some photographic journalism type things on the life and times of a poop. Pick some days off, pick some poop and record how long it lasts. There's quite a few varieties of grasses/soil areas just on my small acreage, plus chickens in some areas, it may be interesting to see which parts seem to disappear fastest.
     
  20. davieh3350

    davieh3350 Member

    Location:
    Pitlochry
    Diatomaceous earth and sulphur. Mixed 50/50 works a treat! The highlanders get bothered lice, works well on them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2018
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