Pedigree Breeders, compromising welfare?

[Cowgirl]

I do think the scenario quoted in this thread is truly awful and hope it does not occur too often. It does bother me that vets have been complicit in the production of these animals and maybe should be speaking up more when there are obvious welfare issues. It has always puzzled me why many vets charge half the price to do a Caesar in a cow compared with a bitch. If it wasn't for vets none of this would be possible, so maybe it's time that the profession discussed the ethics of it and put their prices up! That might put some people off doing it.
Having said that, in Herefords, importation of embryos has allowed a huge influx of bloodlines from all parts of the world (good and bad), and has allowed export of our traditional cattle bloodlines to Australia and Argentina in recent years. it could also save our rare breeds from extinction. Calving ease of course should not be such an issue in this type of animal.

 

[neilo]

I do think the scenario quoted in this thread is truly awful and hope it does not occur too often. It does bother me that vets have been complicit in the production of these animals and maybe should be speaking up more when there are obvious welfare issues. It has always puzzled me why many vets charge half the price to do a Caesar in a cow compared with a bitch. If it wasn't for vets none of this would be possible, so maybe it's time that the profession discussed the ethics of it and put their prices up! That might put some people off doing it.
Having said that, in Herefords, importation of embryos has allowed a huge influx of bloodlines from all parts of the world (good and bad), and has allowed export of our traditional cattle bloodlines to Australia and Argentina in recent years. it could also save our rare breeds from extinction. Calving ease of course should not be such an issue in this type of animal.

ET is a tool, and a valuable one at that. Like all tools it can be used badly. The case in the OP is of someone doing just that, and making a very poor choice of recipient dam. Once that became clear, I would think that the inducing and CS option 'could' have been in the best interests of the recipients welfare.

The same scenario can happen if recips are poorly chosen for Hereford embryos, or any other breed or species for that matter.

 

[Ysgythan]

Even if it was bred by ET and the reason for the CS was a poor choice of recipient dam? In that instance, the reason for the CS is not necessarily anything to do with the genetics of the calf/lamb.

In principle though, I agree. If I ever have a CS here they don't get retained. Given vet fees, I've usually already culled the dam (sheep) by that point anyway.

Even if it's a single lamb breech presentation that you get out the side to avoid breaking its ribs?

 

[M-J-G]

I spose more or less all the cattle that are farmed are freaks of nature, would your cattle look like they do if they had never been tamed and selectively bred and were still roaming around in the wild same with things like Holsteins no wild cow would have a reason to give that much milk so they are a freak as well there is nothing much natural about any of the "breeds" as we know them so they are all freaks
so farmers should stop selectively breeding and just turn them all in together and see what happens

If you want to take it to thst extreme and that's how you feel then yes, perhaps you should stop selection.

The meaning of freak;

1. a very unusual and unexpected event or situation.
   "the teacher says the accident was a total freak"
   synonyms: unusual, anomalous, atypical, untypical, unrepresentative, abnormal, aberrant, irregular, fluky, exceptional, unparalleled, unaccountable, bizarre, queer, peculiar, odd, freakish; More
2. 2.
   a person, animal, or plant with an unusual physical abnormality.
   "a few freaks have been discovered, one amazing cat tipping the scales at no less than 43 lbs"
   synonyms: aberration, abnormality, irregularity, oddity, monster, monstrosity, malformation, mutant;
   freak of nature
   "the mouse was a genetically engineered freak"

Personally I am happy so long as basic function is achievable, in that reproduction, eating, breathing, walking etc. are not compromised in the name of production or vanity.

 

[M-J-G]

Even if it was bred by ET and the reason for the CS was a poor choice of recipient dam? In that instance, the reason for the CS is not necessarily anything to do with the genetics of the calf/lamb.

In principle though, I agree. If I ever have a CS here they don't get retained. Given vet fees, I've usually already culled the dam (sheep) by that point anyway.

It doesn't matter to me, it wasn't born naturally, so it would be hung up.

 

[neilo]

Even if it's a single lamb breech presentation that you get out the side to avoid breaking its ribs?

In it's own mother, personally, yes I would. That genetic combination is somewhat lacking in functionality if it can't be born naturally, even with assistance.

 

[Ysgythan]

In it's own mother, personally, yes I would. That genetic combination is somewhat lacking in functionality if it can't be born naturally, even with assistance.

Yes, well, it's after being born that Charolais lack functionality.

*meow*

 

[neilo]

Yes, well, it's after being born that Charolais lack functionality.

*meow*

If you say so.

Breed is irrelevant to the above arguement re lambs that can't come out alive, it just occurs more in those breeds that see cabbage heads and big shoulders as an attribute.

 

[Ysgythan]

If you say so.

Breed is irrelevant to the above arguement re lambs that can't come out alive, it just occurs more in those breeds that see cabbage heads and big shoulders as an attribute.

It's a serious point - occasional a little assistance needed to arrive, but the ability to live when it does v being born inside out.

And if you think insulting your potential customers ability to select decent Texels is a good selling point...

 

[neilo]

It's a serious point - occasional a little assistance needed to arrive, but the ability to live when it does v being born inside out.

And if you think insulting your potential customers ability to select decent Texels is a good selling point...

As I lamb my main flock outside, as a growing number do, being born with as little assistance as possible (preferably none) is of paramount importance imo. A lamb that has an easier birth is also up and suckling far more quickly, which is pretty damned important to lamb survival, especially in inclement weather.

As for not being able to select rams, the buyer isn't going to be able tell if a lamb was born without assistance, or if it was a CS, unless the breeder chooses to tell them.
You can't tell just by looking. I used a very 'maternal' looking ram in my crossbred flock a few years ago, where I had to pull over 50% of the progeny. He didn't stay.

 

[bjreroberts]

In my view, if you are regularly having to assist with calving then you are already pushing the boundaries. Most animals should be able to give birth naturally and only need help in certain circumstances.

 

[Ysgythan]

In my view, if you are regularly having to assist with calving then you are already pushing the boundaries. Most animals should be able to give birth naturally and only need help in certain circumstances.

That's a view. It's the majority view on here certainly. It's also wrong.

If you're breeding a terminal bull to put on dairy or dairy cross sucklers then you have to push the boundaries. The market for month old blue x calves speaks for itself. Use a rare breed if you want calves spat out but what will you then have in the sale ring?

Breeding is all about compromises. You pay your money you take your choice and the rest is down to your management. If you buy the wrong stuff for the wrong reasons it's not the animal's fault.

 

[GenuineRisk]

In my view, if you are regularly having to assist with calving then you are already pushing the boundaries. Most animals should be able to give birth naturally and only need help in certain circumstances.

In an ideal world, I probably wouldn't disagree with you - no one wants a difficult life, after all. But, in the current economic climate, where dairy farmers have been losing money and every single penny counts, a little extra effort to get a calf worth on average £100 + because it's got better conformation and will make more at market - it's a no brainer. Effort has always equaled return in my book.

We as a species assist women all the time to give birth and anyone who's ever had a baby knows full well that Nature is an expert on providing you with an amnesiac hormone, so that you very quickly forget the pain because you are so happy to have your baby! Natural birth or c-section. Believe most mammals are the same and certainly cattle are - without doubt they have a far higher pain threshold than we do.

 

[Henarar]

In my view, if you are regularly having to assist with calving then you are already pushing the boundaries. Most animals should be able to give birth naturally and only need help in certain circumstances.

That's a view. It's the majority view on here certainly. It's also wrong.

If you're breeding a terminal bull to put on dairy or dairy cross sucklers then you have to push the boundaries. The market for month old blue x calves speaks for itself. Use a rare breed if you want calves spat out but what will you then have in the sale ring?

Breeding is all about compromises. You pay your money you take your choice and the rest is down to your management. If you buy the wrong stuff for the wrong reasons it's not the animal's fault.

Not sure this thread is about that
I was under the impression that it was about taking an embryo from one cow and putting it in a heifer that does not have much chance of calving it properly and as the calf is worth far more than the heifer best to cut it out rather than risk a proper birth, not to worry though as the heifer can be fattened and sent on out the way and the genetic dam can still be shown to potential buyers of said calf or paraded around a show ground without a mark on her so everything is OK

 

[GenuineRisk]

It doesn't matter to me, it wasn't born naturally, so it would be hung up.

Too many variables to make such a seeping statement. We've had naturally calving pedigree cows who have had two, three and four calves naturally this year have sections because the calves were way bigger than usual, all by different sires. Basically, they all did too well over this extremely mild winter we had. So why should they go on the hook?!?! Cow/ewe management plays a massive part in easy calving/lambing - you can't blame it all on the breed. Personally, I find such broad, sweeping and inflexible attitudes to be just as questionable when it comes to animal welfare as the subject being discussed.

 

[Henarar]

I was born by c section so can't be really against it but I don't think Mum really wanted one, I have never been able to own a car with a sun roof because of the urge to climb out

I think they can be the best thing to do when things go wrong if they were not available I wouldn't be here
But I think its best to do our best to avoid them and definitely avoid them on some poor heifer that is not even having its own calf

 

[unlacedgecko]

In an ideal world, I probably wouldn't disagree with you - no one wants a difficult life, after all. But, in the current economic climate, where dairy farmers have been losing money and every single penny counts, a little extra effort to get a calf worth on average £100 + because it's got better conformation and will make more at market - it's a no brainer. Effort has always equaled return in my book.

If everything is costed (eg labour, increased rate of CS, increased dam mortality?) does that extra £100+ leave extra profit?

 

[GenuineRisk]

W

If everything is costed (eg labour, increased rate of CS, increased dam mortality?) does that extra £100+ leave extra profit?

What increased dam mortality!?! Sorry but that's a bit of myth when you're in a controlled situation. We aren't doing sections on recips or the odd pedigree that are emergency ones, ie when unexpected and often not detected until it's becoming a life threatening situation! If you do what we're doing, you do it properly, with proper CCTV, you know when they're going to calve because being ET, you know exactly when embryo went in, so no excuse not be vigilant and so it becomes a smooth well-oiled machine as our vets will tell you! We don't run a emigre stock bull as we do our own AI, so again, calving dates are always accurate.

It's taken a while for the NewPole herd to be profitable, admittedly - we've had to earn our place selling bulls and heifers that others are pleased with and we put a huge amount of effort into it because we love what we do. We enjoy showing a few of our cattle each year and that's not particularly 'profitable' but as we love it, reward enough!

That's talking pedigrees. If you're talking about Blues over the dairy herd, it sure has been worth it, it's basically what's kept the dairy herd's head above water during negative milk prices. And no 'dam mortality' there or c-sections whatsoever - wouldn't do it if there were!

 

[liammogs]

If everything is costed (eg labour, increased rate of CS, increased dam mortality?) does that extra £100+ leave extra profit?

Dont think there reffering to the extra £100 on the ET calf more on the ET's calfs own prodgeny if that makes sence?

Without people producing shapey bulls by the use of et there would be no premium on the bbx and charolais calves out of the dairy sector

 

[unlacedgecko]

W



What increased dam mortality!?! Sorry but that's a bit of myth when you're in a controlled situation. We aren't doing sections on recips or the odd pedigree that are emergency ones, ie when unexpected and often not detected until it's becoming a life threatening situation! If you do what we're doing, you do it properly, with proper CCTV, you know when they're going to calve because being ET, you know exactly when embryo went in, so no excuse not be vigilant and so it becomes a smooth well-oiled machine as our vets will tell you! We don't run a emigre stock bull as we do our own AI, so again, calving dates are always accurate.

It's taken a while for the NewPole herd to be profitable, admittedly - we've had to earn our place selling bulls and heifers that others are pleased with and we put a huge amount of effort into it because we love what we do. We enjoy showing a few of our cattle each year and that's not particularly 'profitable' but as we love it, reward enough!

That's talking pedigrees. If you're talking about Blues over the dairy herd, it sure has been worth it, it's basically what's kept the dairy herd's head above water during negative milk prices. And no 'dam mortality' there or c-sections whatsoever - wouldn't do it if there were!

Great answer thanks. It was the ET bulls over dairy herd effect that interested me.