Phosphate

[Old Spot]

Just got my soil samples back, heavy clay now herbal leys.
high mag, high ph (if you believe that) great OM, calcium, potassium CEC.
but P index 1.
i do have a lot of fym which will get spread.
what does anyone use to effectively up their levels

 

[neilo]

Sewage cake is supposed to lift P quickly iirc, albeit at the risk of bringing in lord knows what else.

Can you get hold of any chicken muck?

 

[Old Spot]

I’ve been trying to get chicken muck, I understand they have too much in Herefordshire.
from my initial enquiries it all get used locally, closely guarded to not let anyone in.

 

[4R Man]

Triple Super Phosphate (TSP) is the obvious answer, there will be some Phosphates in your muck, but probably not enough.
TSP is 0. 46. 0

 

[JohnAC]

We have used DAP for the last lot of years to get ours up and it will take time to get it up it’s 18-46-0! Silage ground gets 1 bag to the acre and grazing half A bag

 

[Old Spot]

Interesting about TSP, I have been put off it in the past (not available)
but reading the subject again I may be

 

[ollie989898]

The next time you pay for soil samples, you tell Yara/Lancrop you want the report version where the corrective levels in kg/ha are stated (only the lab opinion based on RB209 mind) as you have paid for the sample- there is no reason you should be tied to the advice of the person that took them. All the soil samples I ever did had the recommended levels printed on that report. The farmer was then at liberty to read it and buy fertiliser or similar from myself or anyone else he liked.

This applies to all of you who are being charged for soil sampling.

In this situation I would simply use TSP as it's convenient and easy to use in bagged form for small areas. If we were talking about a more sizeable area there is P grow and fibrophos etc to consider. Sewage on a stock farm I'd be wary of and even more so when it came to chicken muck due to the botulism risk.

 

[Punch]

I’d recommend DAP rather than TSP. I was told it’s a better”form” of P.
Usually better priced than TSP, if you consider you have a half rate of AN equivalent at same time. Like @JohnAC says use on mowing and grazing. Keep putting you muck back on too. It’ll take awhile to raise but at least they will be some available every spring.

 

[ollie989898]

I’d recommend DAP rather than TSP. I was told it’s a better”form” of P.
Usually better priced than TSP, if you consider you have a half rate of AN equivalent at same time. Like @JohnAC says use on mowing and grazing. Keep putting you muck back on too. It’ll take awhile to raise but at least they will be some available every spring.

DAP will be dearer per unit of phosphate because it contains nitrogen. I would not use it on grassland. Generally used for crops at or very near sowing time only.

 

[Punch]

Yes it will be dearer but usually works out cheaper with the N valued at half AN price.
We last bought DAP at just over £500 when AN was £330. Knock £165 off and TSP had to be £360 or cheaper to be better value. I was quoted £380 so DAP was cheaper!

 

[Princess Pooper]

Another vote for TSP. Be careful about spreading muck, your soils are high in potash and you have enough of that already, excess can lead to staggers/milk fever.

 

[ollie989898]

Yes it will be dearer but usually works out cheaper with the N valued at half AN price.
We last bought DAP at just over £500 when AN was £330. Knock £165 off and TSP had to be £360 or cheaper to be better value. I was quoted £380 so DAP was cheaper!

Probably because they had DAP in stock they wanted to get rid of.....

 

[Punch]

Probably because they had DAP in stock they wanted to get rid of.....

How often do you buy DAP & TSP @ollie989898? Every time I’ve bought in last 5 years the DAP has been a better buy!
Maybe I just buy AN wrong!

 

[clemmo]

How often do you buy DAP & TSP @ollie989898? Every time I’ve bought in last 5 years the DAP has been a better buy!
Maybe I just buy AN wrong!

Both work in very different ways depending on what you want to achieve

 

[Old Spot]

The next time you pay for soil samples, you tell Yara/Lancrop you want the report version where the corrective levels in kg/ha are stated (only the lab opinion based on RB209 mind) as you have paid for the sample- there is no reason you should be tied to the advice of the person that took them. All the soil samples I ever did had the recommended levels printed on that report. The farmer was then at liberty to read it and buy fertiliser or similar from myself or anyone else he liked.

This applies to all of you who are being charged for soil sampling.

In this situation I would simply use TSP as it's convenient and easy to use in bagged form for small areas. If we were talking about a more sizeable area there is P grow and fibrophos etc to consider. Sewage on a stock farm I'd be wary of and even more so when it came to chicken muck due to the botulism risk.

its on the back of the sheet

 

[neilo]

Triple Super Phosphate (TSP) is the obvious answer, there will be some Phosphates in your muck, but probably not enough.
TSP is 0. 46. 0

Is TSP not rendered largely unavailable on high pH soils, or have I dreamt that?

@Brisel ?

 

[Flatlander]

Is TSP not rendered largely unavailable on high pH soils, or have I dreamt that?

@Brisel ?

It is to some degree. My soils are in 7.8 to 8.2 ph range. Phosphate is drilled in the seed row to get the biggest response. I still will spread and incorporate into the top4 inches extra to boost the ppm levels to around 25 High sulphur levels help a bit too

 

[Brisel]

Is TSP not rendered largely unavailable on high pH soils, or have I dreamt that?

@Brisel ?

Soluble phosphate does react with calcium to form a pretty inert calcium phosphate. Reducing calcium phosphate requires acids or a lot of sulphur. @Warnesworth might be better at explaining this, or @Two Tone

What are the alternatives? Whatever you can get cheaply. Top of my list is sewage cake, then chicken litter, FYM, Fibrophos/Kalfos. DAP can be priced well vs TSP but consider when you’ll be applying it - can you justify the nitrogen dose and will you get the best of it? MAP is inherently acidic, so good on high pH soils but its cost and scarcity makes it prohibitive when compared to other sources.

 

[Two Tone]

Soluble phosphate does react with calcium to form a pretty inert calcium phosphate. Reducing calcium phosphate requires acids or a lot of sulphur. @Warnesworth might be better at explaining this, or @Two Tone

What are the alternatives? Whatever you can get cheaply. Top of my list is sewage cake, then chicken litter, FYM, Fibrophos/Kalfos. DAP can be priced well vs TSP but consider when you’ll be applying it - can you justify the nitrogen dose and will you get the best of it? MAP is inherently acidic, so good on high pH soils but its cost and scarcity makes it prohibitive when compared to other sources.

@Warnesworth can explain it a lot better than me. It is very much part of what is the Albrecht system.

But yes, high Calcium plus Iron soils react very quickly with TSP and look it up into Calcium Phosphate that is highly insoluble and is what our teeth are made of.

Applying Sulphur can break the Cation bond to form Calcium Sulphate (Gypsum/plaster of Paris) releasing the Phosphate to become available to the plant.

 

[Old Spot]

Ok so I have been a fan of the Albrecht system, I always apply sulphur to slowly reduce my high mag. Sampling shows it is slowly improving. I was told it would take 30 years to see an improvement ( now in year 12).
MOP £378, DAP £582, TSP £448
the Timac product £650 (23%P 21%S) soluble and more available but .