Public Accounts Committee enquiry into ELMS

[DaveGrohl]

Maybe shortening the supply chain means cutting out those pesky farmers?!

Not sure why you jest. What do you think tumour "meat" is all about? It sure as hell isn’t about climate change or supporting anyone else other than big money.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Not sure why you jest. What do you think tumour "meat" is all about? It sure as hell isn’t about climate change or supporting anyone else other than big money.

It certainly isn't about animal welfare either.....

 

[Huno]

Whilst at the same time Drax power station burns 800,000 trees a day mostly imported from the US supported by a £800 million yearly subsidy from the government which is classed as environmentally beneficial, talk about about total hypocrites!!

Which is why we mere peasants on forums need a Lawyer Jacko.. they can give the balanced view to DEFRA about the consequences of their actions and we might get to keep our jobs and homes??

 

[Huno]

Which is why we mere peasants on forums need a Lawyer Jacko.. they can give the balanced view to DEFRA about the consequences of their actions and we might get to keep our jobs and homes??

Sorry for being so bloody sensible for once...

 

[steveR]

Or, at the absolute least, the right to leave the contract without penalty if you disagree with changes being introduced (including that any land use change so far created can be reversed without any action from ANY regulatory body to prevent it).

These two points have appeared to be a stumbling block for JH and DEFRA from my reading of the various threads.

Slightly worrying as DEFRA is usually the lead Departrment on all these matters... Just who "runs" Natural England anyway?

 

[renewablejohn]

These two points have appeared to be a stumbling block for JH and DEFRA from my reading of the various threads.

Slightly worrying as DEFRA is usually the lead Departrment on all these matters... Just who "runs" Natural England anyway?

Natural England is totally out of control making up its own rules just like the Forestry Commission and Environment Agency. It all went totally wrong when government decreed enforcement action and penalties could by administered by these quango's.

 

[Cheesehead]

Natural England is totally out of control making up its own rules just like the Forestry Commission and Environment Agency. It all went totally wrong when government decreed enforcement action and penalties could by administered by these quango's.

It was more making them more self funding then it makes more in their interest to penalise rather than work to resolve issues less they are unable to afford their end of year party or the boss's new BMW

 

[willy]

Farmers are being treated like circus animals, being asked to jump through hoops for little scraps..... Not worth our while

 

[Janet Hughes Defra]

101% Yes.

The terms and conditions need to be as of the day the contract is signed. You cannot run any business with an open ended clause which allows for changes in the rules without any redress which is what the government have got away with in the past.

We're reviewing the terms and conditions for SFI before we roll it out this year, including looking at this feedback about rule changes mid-contract - we'll publish the terms and conditions for you all to see before we launch the scheme

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

Does anyone know what the payment rate for low or very low input pp is please, and is it the same under cs as in the elms?

 

[Janet Hughes Defra]

Does anyone know what the payment rate for low or very low input pp is please, and is it the same under cs as in the elms?

We've just reviewed CS payment rates - the new rates are here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...rates-for-revenue-options-from-1-january-2022 - they include increases for low input / permanent grassland (search the page for 'grassland' to see all the relevant options).

The relevant SFI standard (only currently available in the pilot) is here - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/low-and-no-input-grassland-standard - the price for this is being updated to reflect the recent increases to CS rates, and we'll publish the updated rates shortly. The standard will be reviewed in light of what we learn in the pilot, before we roll it out in the main scheme - currently planned for 2024 https://defrafarming.blog.gov.uk/2021/12/06/how-the-sustainable-farming-incentive-will-develop/

 

[renewablejohn]

We're reviewing the terms and conditions for SFI before we roll it out this year, including looking at this feedback about rule changes mid-contract - we'll publish the terms and conditions for you all to see before we launch the scheme

If you want an example of the current nonsense and are passing Lancashire your cordially invited to inspect the trees that the forestry commission have decreed are not growing and have now reduced my woodland area to zero and threatening court action.You might also appreciate how a little 5 ha farm can be such a key element in a 1000 ha desert of silage ground when it comes to wildlife.

 

[Cheesehead]

If you want an example of the current nonsense and are passing Lancashire your cordially invited to inspect the trees that the forestry commission have decreed are not growing and have now reduced my woodland area to zero and threatening court action.You might also appreciate how a little 5 ha farm can be such a key element in a 1000 ha desert of silage ground when it comes to wildlife.

Seems rather ironic I can remember the Forestry Commission selling a local forest they owned and managed and had no objections to a lot of it being felled to make way for a knock-off Centre Parc

 

[renewablejohn]

Seems rather ironic I can remember the Forestry Commission selling a local forest they owned and managed and had no objections to a lot of it being felled to make way for a knock-off Centre Parc

Its really ironic the Forestry Commission have a small woodland which they planted to show the benefits of planting broadleaf trees instead of conifers on the west pennine moors. Its less than 5 miles away from me and it totally failed. With my local knowledge and by planting a nursery hedge of Norway Spruce my broadleaf trees are growing well apart from the Ash which has been killed by Ash die back a disease brought into the country by the Forestry Commission.

 

[Huno]

We've just reviewed CS payment rates - the new rates are here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...rates-for-revenue-options-from-1-january-2022 - they include increases for low input / permanent grassland (search the page for 'grassland' to see all the relevant options).

The relevant SFI standard (only currently available in the pilot) is here - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/low-and-no-input-grassland-standard - the price for this is being updated to reflect the recent increases to CS rates, and we'll publish the updated rates shortly. The standard will be reviewed in light of what we learn in the pilot, before we roll it out in the main scheme - currently planned for 2024 https://defrafarming.blog.gov.uk/2021/12/06/how-the-sustainable-farming-incentive-will-develop/

@Janet...Anderson's ( john nix pocketbook lot) were sub contracted by DEFRA to review CS payment rates. Is it only fair that as inflation goes up that they explain to us farmers and the Public Accounts Committee as to why they have reduced rates on future options and can you explain to us why no real tenant farmers were engaged in this budgetary process? The BPS and CS and SFI scheme is still full of holes and treats Landlord and Tenant farmers in a very unequal way... Tenants cant argue a rent reduction thanks to SFI 22 tiny offers and landlords can just pay themselves a lower rent. At a DEFRA meeting yesterday every tenant in the room echoed this..
Please explain to our landlords why they should reduce our rent until 2025 and they will laugh at you.. and you wonder why farmers are not keen to co design elm etc as we start digging our own financial mass grave?? Please respond

 

[tepapa]

@Janet...Anderson's ( john nix pocketbook lot) were sub contracted by DEFRA to review CS payment rates. Is it only fair that as inflation goes up that they explain to us farmers and the Public Accounts Committee as to why they have reduced rates on future options and can you explain to us why no real tenant farmers were engaged in this budgetary process? The BPS and CS and SFI scheme is still full of holes and treats Landlord and Tenant farmers in a very unequal way... Tenants cant argue a rent reduction thanks to SFI 22 tiny offers and landlords can just pay themselves a lower rent. At a DEFRA meeting yesterday every tenant in the room echoed this..
Please explain to our landlords why they should reduce our rent until 2025 and they will laugh at you.. and you wonder why farmers are not keen to co design elm etc as we start digging our own financial mass grave?? Please respond

I'll tag the correct @Janet Hughes Defra for you if you require a response.

 

[Janet Hughes Defra]

@Janet...Anderson's ( john nix pocketbook lot) were sub contracted by DEFRA to review CS payment rates. Is it only fair that as inflation goes up that they explain to us farmers and the Public Accounts Committee as to why they have reduced rates on future options and can you explain to us why no real tenant farmers were engaged in this budgetary process? The BPS and CS and SFI scheme is still full of holes and treats Landlord and Tenant farmers in a very unequal way... Tenants cant argue a rent reduction thanks to SFI 22 tiny offers and landlords can just pay themselves a lower rent. At a DEFRA meeting yesterday every tenant in the room echoed this..
Please explain to our landlords why they should reduce our rent until 2025 and they will laugh at you.. and you wonder why farmers are not keen to co design elm etc as we start digging our own financial mass grave?? Please respond

Hello John

The reason why some payment rates have gone down is that in those particular cases, the level of income foregone has gone down (or, less likely, the costs have gone down). The prices won't go down for anyone already in an agreement, only those coming in from next year.

The payments are subject to a formal consultation process through the Commission / RDPE arrangements (because many agreements are still under EU terms - we're migrating away from that set of arrangements as part of the transition as set out in the Withdrawal Agreement).

It's our intention to design our new schemes so that they work for all farmers. That's why we work directly with farmers through the SFI pilot, tests, trials, research and ongoing engagement and co-design. We have around 4,000 farmers involved in this work, one way or another, and are always looking for more (please get in touch if you'd like to get involved).

On SFI, we've designed the scheme to be much more accessible to tenant farmers than CS - shorter agreement lengths, more flexibility each year, you don't need landlord permission (see this post for more info on this: https://defrafarming.blog.gov.uk/2021/12/02/sfi-and-tenants/).

We worked with tenant farmers to develop those rules, and are continuing to work with tenant farmers to design the rules of the other new schemes so that tenant farmers, along with all other farmers, can take part and benefit from them.

 

[Huno]

Thank you for your Reply Janet

 

[delilah]

A flat rate of £148/yr, plus £6.45/Ha.
is identical to
£6.45/Ha.
That is to say, £148 is such a tiny sum of money it isn't worth Defra administering it or a farmer claiming it. What will £148 buy me ? A tyre for the van ? Half a dozen energy buckets ? A pot to p!ss in ?

So, no, it's not remotely the same as a higher rate for the first xHa.
No matter, I think we both see where I am coming form, so I will plough on (don't think it's banned yet ).


I have dug out a fair few Govt papers pertinent to ELMS. I consider this one to be the most important of the lot.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/666713/structure-june-eng-lessfavouredareas-13dec17.xls#:~:text=Less%20Favoured%20Areas%20(LFA)%20were,Disadvantaged%20Areas'%20(SDA).


I really, really hope that your team are familiar with the contents, and are constantly referencing it as they carry out their desk top studies into different ideas for ELMS.

We have to keep those farms farming. If we don't, then ELMS fails. We need to go further than that. We need to see the number of farming businesses increase. If we do that, then ELMS is a success. Critical mass.
https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/critical-mass.358840/


The crux of it is this:
- You need to develop standards that pay a high enough rate in order for those farms to survive.
- If you pay that rate on every Ha, you exceed your budget.
- There is only one way to square that circle; a higher rate on the first xHa.
Yes ?

bump
@Janet Hughes Defra

 

[delilah]

A flat rate of £148/yr, plus £6.45/Ha.
is identical to
£6.45/Ha.
That is to say, £148 is such a tiny sum of money it isn't worth Defra administering it or a farmer claiming it. What will £148 buy me ? A tyre for the van ? Half a dozen energy buckets ? A pot to p!ss in ?

So, no, it's not remotely the same as a higher rate for the first xHa.
No matter, I think we both see where I am coming form, so I will plough on (don't think it's banned yet ).


I have dug out a fair few Govt papers pertinent to ELMS. I consider this one to be the most important of the lot.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/666713/structure-june-eng-lessfavouredareas-13dec17.xls#:~:text=Less%20Favoured%20Areas%20(LFA)%20were,Disadvantaged%20Areas'%20(SDA).


I really, really hope that your team are familiar with the contents, and are constantly referencing it as they carry out their desk top studies into different ideas for ELMS.

We have to keep those farms farming. If we don't, then ELMS fails. We need to go further than that. We need to see the number of farming businesses increase. If we do that, then ELMS is a success. Critical mass.
https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/critical-mass.358840/


The crux of it is this:
- You need to develop standards that pay a high enough rate in order for those farms to survive.
- If you pay that rate on every Ha, you exceed your budget.
- There is only one way to square that circle; a higher rate on the first xHa.
Yes ?

bump
@Janet Hughes Defra