Q Planning Rule Changes

[Martyn]

We own a agriculture shed which measures 615m square which is about 16 years old and always been used for farming, currently holding straw.

Two years ago we asked a local agent to prepare planning to apply for q planning, as it met the requirements. They looked at it and recommend it was split into three dwelling approx 205ms they then contact a design firm to draw up plans. This all took about 6 months.

At the point that the planning application was about to made, the lady overseeing it went on maternity leave as we where asked to wait until she returned to work as she had overseen it all.

She has now returned to work, and after paying for drawing over twelve months ago, this week we have been informed that there have been changes to q planning and that the only way to make use of the shed is to apply for five dwelling.

Can anyone tell us when the rule changes happened? I can find upto date info regarding new requirements but no clarification on date change, was our agent wrong in the first place?

Am all left rather put out with a bill to pay and no planning.

 

[Courier]

" maturity leave " - Like it !!

 

[grainboy]

The increased income from 5 properties rather than 3 would I have thought covered the incurred costs, would it not, ??

 

[Kidds]

Development not permitted​

Q.1 Development is not permitted by Class Q if—

(a)the site was not used solely for an agricultural use as part of an established agricultural unit—

(i)on 20th March 2013, or

(ii)in the case of a building which was in use before that date but was not in use on that date, when it was last in use, or

(iii)in the case of a site which was brought into use after 20th March 2013, for a period of at least 10 years before the date development under Class Q begins;

(b)the cumulative floor space of the existing building or buildings changing use under Class Q within an established agricultural unit exceeds 450 square metres;

(c)the cumulative number of separate dwellinghouses developed under Class Q within an established agricultural unit exceeds 3;

The Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (England) Order 2015

This instrument consolidates with amendments, in relation to England, the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) Order 1995 and subsequent amending instruments and revokes in relation to England the instruments listed in Schedule 4.

www.legislation.gov.uk

Not aware of any changes to the above but @George from SJM Planning might know better.

 

[Martyn]

The increased income from 5 properties rather than 3 would I have thought covered the incurred costs, would it not, ??

You would think so but apparently larger more space dwellings are higher value in shed location as they would all benefit from the views whereas 5 dwellings compromise this and at least 2 would have no long range view.

 

[George from SJM Planning]

When did you start the process? Class Q has not changed since April 2018.

You could never convert 620sqm into 3 205sqm dwellings as they would all be classed as larger dwellinghouses of which you are allowed 3 but they can not exceed 465sqm.

To utilise the full area you would need to include some smaller dwellinghouses which don't exceed 100sqm.

The maximum number of dwellings is 5.

 

[Martyn]

When did you start the process? Class Q has not changed since April 2018.

You could never convert 620sqm into 3 205sqm dwellings as they would all be classed as larger dwellinghouses of which you are allowed 3 but they can not exceed 465sqm.

To utilise the full area you would need to include some smaller dwellinghouses which don't exceed 100sqm.

The maximum number of dwellings is 5.

Thankyou that is exactly how iv read the rules now iv looked at it. Basically we have been poorly advised in Autumn 2020 and the firm has incorrectly had drawing done that are now useless.

 

[Kidds]

Thankyou that is exactly how iv read the rules now iv looked at it. Basically we have been poorly advised in Autumn 2020 and the firm has incorrectly had drawing done that are now useless.

Far from unusual. We had an agent make drawings, print brochure and market a property that we didn't even have planning permission for yet they were the ones appointed to get planning permission.
Not a small back street one man band but a big local Estate Agents. The lady appointed to be in charge of our affairs worked 3 half days a week and then went on maternity leave in the middle of it all too. We've done a few million quids worth of deals through them, I would expect better really.

 

[George from SJM Planning]

Unfortunately there are a lot of 'architects' (I use inverted commas as there is a current trend for anyone with CAD to call themselves and architect), land agents and surveyors out there professing to know what they are doing with Class Q - they see it as easy money. Class Q has so many kniks and wrinkles that it is far from straightforward.

 

[Lazy Sod]

It sounds as though the OP should not pay the bill as the advice given was incorrect. Tell them to go whistle.

 

[TheTallGuy]

We own a agriculture shed which measures 615m square which is about 16 years old and always been used for farming, currently holding straw.

Two years ago we asked a local agent to prepare planning to apply for q planning, as it met the requirements. They looked at it and recommend it was split into three dwelling approx 205ms they then contact a design firm to draw up plans. This all took about 6 months.

At the point that the planning application was about to made, the lady overseeing it went on maternity leave as we where asked to wait until she returned to work as she had overseen it all.

She has now returned to work, and after paying for drawing over twelve months ago, this week we have been informed that there have been changes to q planning and that the only way to make use of the shed is to apply for five dwelling.

Can anyone tell us when the rule changes happened? I can find upto date info regarding new requirements but no clarification on date change, was our agent wrong in the first place?

Am all left rather put out with a bill to pay and no planning.

Ask them to provide evidence that their original work was compliant & details of the rule changes... if they can't or won't then they are obviously talking out of their hats & have failed to provide the contracted service!

 

[Martyn]

When did you start the process? Class Q has not changed since April 2018.

You could never convert 620sqm into 3 205sqm dwellings as they would all be classed as larger dwellinghouses of which you are allowed 3 but they can not exceed 465sqm.

To utilise the full area you would need to include some smaller dwellinghouses which don't exceed 100sqm.

The maximum number of dwellings is 5.

Could you tell us if there have been any rule changes in the last couple of years or have they always been the same, I understand the total area was increased a few years ago and the 5 dwelling rule came in but have there been any other changes, we want challenge our bill but want to be 100% correct that we have been poorly advised.

 

[George from SJM Planning]

Amendments to Part 3, Class Q in 2018

In Class Q of Part 3 of Schedule 2 —

(a) at the end of paragraph Q.(a) for “and” substitute “or”;​

(b) in paragraph Q.(b) before “building operations reasonably necessary” insert “development referred to in paragraph (a) together with”;​

(c) for paragraphs Q.1.(b) to (h) substitute—​

“(b) in the case of—​

(i) a larger dwellinghouse, within an established agricultural unit—​

(aa) the cumulative number of separate larger dwellinghouses developed under Class Q exceeds 3; or​

(bb) the cumulative floor space of the existing building or buildings changing use to a larger dwellinghouse or dwellinghouses under Class Q exceeds 465 square metres;​

(c) in the case of—​

(i) a smaller dwellinghouse, within an established agricultural unit—​

(aa) the cumulative number of separate smaller dwellinghouses developed under Class Q exceeds 5; or​

(bb) the floor space of any one separate smaller dwellinghouse having a use falling within Class C3 (dwellinghouses) of the Schedule to the Use Classes Order exceeds 100 square metres;​

(d) the development under Class Q (together with any previous development under Class Q) within an established agricultural unit would result in either or both of the following—​

(i) a larger dwellinghouse or larger dwellinghouses having more than 465 square metres of floor space having a use falling within Class C3 (dwellinghouses) of the Schedule to the Use Classes Order;​

(ii) the cumulative number of separate dwellinghouses having a use falling within Class C3 (dwellinghouses) of the Schedule to the Use Classes Order exceeding 5;​

(e) the site is occupied under an agricultural tenancy, unless the express consent of both the landlord and the tenant has been obtained;​

(f) less than 1 year before the date development begins—​

(i) an agricultural tenancy over the site has been terminated, and​

(ii) the termination was for the purpose of carrying out development under Class Q, unless both the landlord and the tenant have agreed in writing that the site is no longer required for agricultural use;​

(g) development under Class A(a) or Class B(a) of Part 6 of this Schedule (agricultural buildings and operations) has been carried out on the established agricultural unit—​

(i) since 20th March 2013; or​

(ii) where development under Class Q begins after 20th March 2023, during the period which is 10 years before the date development under Class Q begins;​

(h) the development would result in the external dimensions of the building extending beyond the external dimensions of the existing building at any given point;”;​

(d) after paragraph Q.2 (conditions), insert— “Interpretation of Class Q​

Q.3. For the purposes of Class Q—
“larger dwellinghouse” means a dwellinghouse developed under Class Q which has a floor space of more than 100 square metres and no more than 465 square metres having a use falling within Class C3 (dwellinghouses) of the Schedule to the Use Classes Order;
“smaller dwellinghouse” means a dwellinghouse developed under Class Q which has a floor space of no more than 100 square metres having a use falling within Class C3 (dwellinghouses) of the Schedule to the Use Classes Order.”.

 

[George from SJM Planning]

The above is copied from The Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (England) (Amendment) Order 2018 which I have also attached.

This is the only amendment to the GPDO that relates to Class Q since 2015.

None of these changes affected the floor area in the manner they state. You could never create 3 x 205sqm dwellings, either before or after this amendment.

 

[Martyn]

The above is copied from The Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (England) (Amendment) Order 2018 which I have also attached.

This is the only amendment to the GPDO that relates to Class Q since 2015.

None of these changes affected the floor area in the manner they state. You could never create 3 x 205sqm dwellings, either before or after this amendment.

Brilliant thank you for your time and energy, much appreciated