Rare Breed Survival Trust

[Old Tip]

Had an interesting afternoon with the new head of the above organisation and was surprised how few farmers are members, we have a fair few rare breeds on our farm and i am Chair of the local support group. So i am putting this poll up both to see how many members are on here and if you keep rare breeds why not. Be interested in any comments, the Trust isn't perfect but it has been a successes story thus far saving many breeds from disagreeing altogether and some to becoming mainstream such as the Longhorn
I would be also interested what would make you join, it only costs £4 a month which is less than a pint or a glass of wine in most pubs, so why are so few of us join

 

[SLA]

I’m not a member of RBST but mum is so get the magazine etc. I keep some rare breeds and I am a member of relevant breed societies and they are registered

 

[Massey675]

I don't keep rare breeds as I can't seem to make a sustainable enough profit from them in my opinion and that's what we all need is profit. When I look at the profit in a suffolk/texel then the potential profit in a rare breed it's a no win!
I would like some longwools but I cannot find a decent place to source any, we do have to keep the rare breeds alive but how can we possibly do it sustainably

 

[Princess Pooper]

We don't keep rare breeds and I'm not a member but I often support them with pennies in the collection tin at a local show, buy a few tea towels and other gifts etc, I think their role is invaluable.

 

[Old Tip]

I don't keep rare breeds as I can't seem to make a sustainable enough profit from them in my opinion and that's what we all need is profit. When I look at the profit in a suffolk/texel then the potential profit in a rare breed it's a no win!
I would like some longwools but I cannot find a decent place to source any, we do have to keep the rare breeds alive but how can we possibly do it sustainably

Im also working on that as well, we are currently running two projects to show if a good profit can be made from two different types of rare breed sheep.
With the Longwool's we are turning a better profit than our so called commercial flock, yes we don't have as many but our Teeswater's are making us a very good margin, they produce a fantastic fleece which can be sold for £50/75 each, the skin makes another £45 over costs and the carcass at £80/90 they usual have twins so thats £300 a ewe at 150% sold per ewe.
We are so working with some primitive breeds of sheep assessing finishing on grass only and eating quality, got a few restaurants taking these carcass and are very pleased thus far, we will see how things pan out but its looking promising. The hope is to encourage a few farmers to buy these store lambs and finish them on a contract or similar arrangement, a lot of these breeds are kept by small holders as they are easy to handle but don't have the skills or grass to finish them properly.

 

[topground]

I am under the impression that RBST aren't keen on breeds being recreated so I havent been any where near them with the Sheeted Somerset Cattle project.

 

[JP1]

As mentioned to you earlier on the 'phone, I am with TopGround in that I believe the RBST are actually working behind the scenes to prevent the recognition of emerging breeds and their lobbying behind the scenes with DEFRA etc

The irony being that these breeds are numerically rarer than the ones they do recognise

I therefore find it difficult to support them

 

[pipkins]

I have pedigree rare breeds as a lowly smallholder (two of the combined flock book breeds of sheep as it happens) and have been quite vocal and active in my support of them in the past and enjoyed lots of links and benefits as a result BUT I didn't renew my membership this year for three reasons.

1) The CEO debacle last summer. I thought Tom did more for the organisation than a vast majority of others involved at that level.
2) The rhetoric on those trial pin badge things touting the British Lop as some victim of the Howitt report when in actual fact two of those breeds are among the rarest of all and are being actively promoted by the British Pig Association in an attempt to save the pedigree stock.
3) The National Rare and Minority Breeds Show as sponsored by the RBST doesn't live up to the title, it should be the pinnacle of the season for rare breed keepers but it was like a side show. Seems a lack of commitment to it. Although for balance I did go and have a good show. I don't think they even put the results on the RBST website or in The Ark?

Not sure how this will leave me for registering births etc but we shall see. I am in a variety of breed clubs and the non-CFB one is by far the most active and enjoyable and I may have a change in policy over the next few years. And yes I have made my thoughts known to field officers who I know and respect very much, all three do fantastic work. I have also given lots of my time to two of my local support groups but for me the issues lie much further up the food chain and until that changes my time and money will be given to other causes I'm afraid.

 

[yellowbelly]

We have a small pedigree flock of Lincolns. We keep these going as they are indigenous to our county and I wouldn't like to see them disappear the same way as the Lincolnshire Curly Coat pig did.

We also have links that go a long way back into the past. Both sides of Mrs YB's family are in the early flock books ( the paternal side's flock number was in double digits, so they were registered fairly early after the LLSBA was founded in 1892). As a lad, I used to help our next door neighbour with his Lincolns. He was one of the three breeders in the county that stopped them becoming extinct in the 1960's and 70's. We have some of his bloodlines, and although I've never done it (never seem to have enough time), they will be traceable back to the start of the flock book.

We are not, and never have been, members of the RBST. Whist acknowledging that they do a lot of good in general, they are a bit of a thorn in my side with regard to our breed.

At risk of boring you farther, I will explain. Lincolns are and always have been a wool breed. To be of any value wool had to be white, so it would take dye of any colour (look at the price the BWMB pay for black wool, even today).
When our society was formed by Lincolnshire farmers, nowhere in the articles of association or the breed description, was white wool ever written down - in those days, our founding fathers would never have dreamt that anyone would keep anything other than white. In the dark days of the late 70's and 80's when the breed almost disappeared, one breeder kept a few black sheep and managed to get them into a register at the back of the flock book. This has led to 'contamination' of the gene pool (which is still very small) with black genes. Try as we might, the RBST, will not let us start a separate flock book for these black Lincolns, saying that they will only recognise one breed.
Until such times as they will, in the words of the Dragon's Den, "I'm out".

Sorry to go on, but it's a particular bugbear of mine.

I must acknowledge, that sometime in the past (before my involvement on the LLSBA council) the society did receive some financial support from the RBST.

 

[delilah]

I am under the impression that RBST aren't keen on breeds being recreated so I havent been any where near them with the Sheeted Somerset Cattle project.

I would have a word with them, as I think there are at least a couple of breeds (Norfolk Horn, Blue Albion) where the rbst have recognised them despite their numbers and breeding being murky enough for the saved/recreated distinction to be regarded as being blurry. (Not in any way an expert on this so don't shoot me down, just what I have surmised from reading The Ark).

 

[Old Tip]

Thanks for the info @yellowbelly
Once the poll ends I will be writing to the new boss with a concise version of all the comments and the results of the poll so will let you know what results I get.
On your specific issue all sheep have a black gene, but as you say most were bred to produce white wool in the Middle Ages. Actually we get more for our black wool than the white but that’s a different subject

 

[Old Tip]

Thanks for the comments @pipkins
I don’t think we will ever get to the bottom of Tom’s departure and the mismanagement that followed.
Don’t no enough about your other issues but I willl pass them on and see if I can get any answers.
I also hope I didn’t offend you, smallholders are the back bone of the organisation and the main protector of many of these endangered breeds. I was just shocked how few full time farmers were members

 

[yellowbelly]

Once the poll ends I will be writing to the new boss with a concise version of all the comments and the results of the poll so will let you know what results I get.

Thanks, that would be appreciated.

On your specific issue all sheep have a black gene, but as you say most were bred to produce white wool in the Middle Ages.

Yeah, I totally get the black gene thing and the way it works and have no problem with anybody who wants to breed black Lincolns (there's great demand for their wool amongst the hand spinning/weaving fraternity).
Being a traditionalist, I'd just prefer it to be a totally separate breed as it is the complete opposite to what was originally intended.

 

[egbert]

I've seldom been impressed in recent years.
i wholly get, and support, the founding concept -and had utmost respect for Joe H.
Keeping obscure genetics alive, which might otherwise fall by the wayside because they're currently out of fashion. It has to be the right thing to do.

But there are real problems -as far as i can see.

The lack of freely available computer software to help small pedigree societies wrankles.
(and personalities come into it here, which soooo shouldn't be allowed to be an issue)

The blindness to the problems associated with 'smallholder' influence.
By this, I mean the common occurrence where breeders with tiny numbers, little experience, and who are miles away from any commercial rationale, leads to 'less informed' breeding decisions.
i'm old enough to have watched the quality of the longhorns plummet as numbers grew -in my opinion. It has recovered now to a greater extent, but they used to be outstanding cattle. (I suppose it's inevitable - only the cream would have been kept when they on the downslope)
I can think of one or two sheep breeds where the only thing keeping them alive as FUNCTIONAL sheep is the handful of commercial scale breeders.
The hobbyists -and I've nothing agin them as individuals in any way- are too prone to keep irrationally selected males.

As JP1 knows, there are several levels of DEFRA paperwork being demanded of us just now (and I think we're on top of it again now JP)
The RBST should be on this like a terrier after a rat.

Likewise, criteria for recognition is questionable.

i should say i found the staff at Stoneleigh very sensible and helpful recently.

Don't know what happened with Tom, but he's a good egg from what I know of him. I could ask if you like.

 

[matthew]

I've seldom been impressed in recent years.
i wholly get, and support, the founding concept -and had utmost respect for Joe H.
Keeping obscure genetics alive, which might otherwise fall by the wayside because they're currently out of fashion. It has to be the right thing to do.

But there are real problems -as far as i can see.

The lack of freely available computer software to help small pedigree societies wrankles.
(and personalities come into it here, which soooo shouldn't be allowed to be an issue)

The blindness to the problems associated with 'smallholder' influence.
By this, I mean the common occurrence where breeders with tiny numbers, little experience, and who are miles away from any commercial rationale, leads to 'less informed' breeding decisions.
i'm old enough to have watched the quality of the longhorns plummet as numbers grew -in my opinion. It has recovered now to a greater extent, but they used to be outstanding cattle. (I suppose it's inevitable - only the cream would have been kept when they on the downslope)
I can think of one or two sheep breeds where the only thing keeping them alive as FUNCTIONAL sheep is the handful of commercial scale breeders.
The hobbyists -and I've nothing agin them as individuals in any way- are too prone to keep irrationally selected males.

As JP1 knows, there are several levels of DEFRA paperwork being demanded of us just now (and I think we're on top of it again now JP)
The RBST should be on this like a terrier after a rat.

Likewise, criteria for recognition is questionable.

i should say i found the staff at Stoneleigh very sensible and helpful recently.

Don't know what happened with Tom, but he's a good egg from what I know of him. I could ask if you like.

Couldn't agree more.
And with regard to the RBST putting its collective shoulder behind eradication of TB, forget it.
Much of their support comes from elderly, semi retired smallholders who just happen to lurve spripey wildlife - whatever state it is in. Or so I was told on several occasions. My colleagues who have been very successful with hoisting the English longhorn to the position it enjoys today have been equally snubbed.

That's despite the main breeding herds of some very rare cattle being in TB hotspots, alpacas too being hugely susceptible and Joe H's wellknown - or not so wellknown - offspring being in positions of privilege to get the messages across.

 

[topground]

My knowledge of the organisation is limited. I visited the Cotswold Farm Park in 1974 on an early date with my now ex wife and I have nothing but admiration for the work Joe Henson and his colleagues did in the early years.
I have tried this morning to access the RBST website to educate myself about their membership, funding and what they pay their Chief Executive.
I failed to get past the page seeking funding!
I never deal with any charity until I know what proportion of their expenses are spent on administration and how much actually reaches the cause the charity is seeking to support.
I have concerns about any charity that has undue influence with Civil Servants on policy matters. Can anyone enlighten me on the makeup of the RBST membership if few farmers are members?
If few farmers are members is it the case that the Influence the RBST has in the corridors of power is not grounded in commercial reality?
What livestock breeders choose to breed and what they call those animals should be the preserve of those breeders and not organisations that have no direct stake in the commercial realities.
That is why the Sheeted Somerset Cattle Project has not engaged with the RBST but we suspect their influence with DEFRA has led to bureaucratic resistance to what is a commercial project with a unique selling point.
Is RBST now a self appointed elite?

 

[JP1]

Thanks for the info @yellowbelly
Once the poll ends I will be writing to the new boss with a concise version of all the comments and the results of the poll so will let you know what results I get.
On your specific issue all sheep have a black gene, but as you say most were bred to produce white wool in the Middle Ages. Actually we get more for our black wool than the white but that’s a different subject

When you want the full detail (and names in my black book) let me know @Old Tip

BTW the RBST also has some real stars as you and I know (her) very well

 

[Old Tip]

When you want the full detail (and names in my black book) let me know @Old Tip

BTW the RBST also has some real stars as you and I know (her) very well

Send me a PM @JP1

 

[Whitepeak]

What is the RBSTs stance on collecting embryos now? Always thought it daft that they had a genetics bank of semen but no embryos

 

[JP1]

My knowledge of the organisation is limited. I visited the Cortswold Farm Park in 1974 on an early date with my now ex wife and I have nothing but admiration for the work Joe Henson and his colleagues did in the early years.
I have tried this morning to access the RBST website to educate myself about their membership, funding and what they pay their Chief Executive.
I failed to get past the page seeking funding!
I never deal with any charity until I know what proportion of their expenses are spent on administration and how much actually reaches the cause the charity is seeking to support.
I have concerns about any charity that has undue influence with Civil Servants on policy matters. Can anyone enlighten me on the makeup of the RBST membership if few farmers are members?
If few farmers are members is it the case that the Influence the RBST has in the corridors of power is not grounded in commercial reality?
What livestock breeders choose to breed and what they call those animals should be the preserve of those breeders and not organisations that have no direct stake in the commercial realities.
That is why the Sheeted Somerset Cattle Project has not engaged with the RBST but we suspect their influence with DEFRA has led to bureaucratic resistance to what is a commercial project with a unique selling point.
Is RBST now a self appointed elite?

I've asked for a public audience in front of the full DEFRA FAnGR committee when they next convene. Maybe we should get you in front of them at the same time? The lay Committee appointees are known but you try getting information about who attends these meetings from other sides and what decisions are made (or even when they actually convene.....)