Re mapping

[czechmate]

I’ve never been a fan for tractors. Just have a tractor big enough, surely
But, I bought a mower a couple of years after the tractor and it’s fine for second cut but at times with first cut I’m maxing at 8k. Not the end of the world but out of curiosity, when at the dealer I asked what they thought/if they covered re maps.
Oh yes, we work with deutz, it’s fully covered and safe. You get more power, more tourque and better fuel consumption. Great, booked in for next week.
But had me thinking, “why don’t they map them properly in the first place?”.

 

[Nearly]

emissions

Mainly hot air.

 

[czechmate]

It’s a nice idea it’s a genuine reason but I would of thought running leaner would be better emissions ?

 

[Wellytrack]

I’ve never been a fan for tractors. Just have a tractor big enough, surely
But, I bought a mower a couple of years after the tractor and it’s fine for second cut but at times with first cut I’m maxing at 8k. Not the end of the world but out of curiosity, when at the dealer I asked what they thought/if they covered re maps.
Oh yes, we work with deutz, it’s fully covered and safe. You get more power, more tourque and better fuel consumption. Great, booked in for next week.
But had me thinking, “why don’t they map them properly in the first place?”.

Proper heavy first cut 8k would still be good with front and backs on.

 

[nick...]

I’m sure dealers map new tractors if they are putting a smaller model against bigger competition of the same price.probal don’t tell customers either.
nick...

 

[czechmate]

Proper heavy first cut 8k would still be good with front and backs on.

i bought a Kuhn 5M Alterna which suits me well. It is very heavy so when the ground is still a little soft it takes some pulling about. It’s well matched with my JD 6930 but I try and keep the hours off the old girl now.

 

[Pistonbroke]

I’m sure dealers map new tractors if they are putting a smaller model against bigger competition of the same price.probal don’t tell customers either.
nick...

When Riverlea tractors finished with Case and started selling Claas they found them gutless and chipped every one they sold. 120hp four cylinders putting out 150 at the PTO. Strange thing was,they were still gutless unless revving flat out.

 

[Timbo]

When Riverlea tractors finished with Case and started selling Claas they found them gutless and chipped every one they sold. 120hp four cylinders putting out 150 at the PTO. Strange thing was,they were still gutless unless revving flat out.

Basically at the time, people were still learning to remap and the software available to do so was very limited. They would apply +20% to the whole fuel table or squew the injector iq, often leaving the torque limiters and smoke limiters the same as before (because they didnt know where they were) so the only time you got +20% was at the top end rpm where both the limiters had backed off.

We still see this now by the door-step tuning brigade, and some frankly dangerous "work"

 

[Pistonbroke]

Basically at the time, people were still learning to remap and the software available to do so was very limited. They would apply +20% to the whole fuel table or squew the injector iq, often leaving the torque limiters and smoke limiters the same as before (because they didnt know where they were) so the only time you got +20% was at the top end rpm where both the limiters had backed off.

We still see this now by the door-step tuning brigade, and some frankly dangerous "work"

My neighbour bought one of the above tractors and was disappointed so got them out with a Dyno. I don't know the make of chip they were using but it was adjustable and it was way too high fuelling to the point it was misfiring. Dialed it back 20 hp and it ran better but was then under powered for what he wanted. Ended up going back and having a bigger model

 

[Timbo]

My neighbour bought one of the above tractors and was disappointed so got them out with a Dyno. I don't know the make of chip they were using but it was adjustable and it was way too high fuelling to the point it was misfiring. Dialed it back 20 hp and it ran better but was then under powered for what he wanted. Ended up going back and having a bigger model

If they were using a chip, that's entirely different but not surprising the results were underwhelming.

 

[clbarclay]

But had me thinking, “why don’t they map them properly in the first place?”.

My understanding is that when developing/tuning an engine, there is always a three way balance between power, efficiency and emissions.

There is a lot that can be done to improve all three, but ultimately there is always a trade off and even then there are trade offs between individual aspects of those three.

Emission regulations are primarily focused on the emissions that are directly bad for people's health. Carbon Monoxide, Nitrogen Oxides and Particulate Matter.

If the registrations prioritised Carbon Dioxide emissions, then manufacturers engine tunes could well be a lot more efficient.

 

[Timbo]

My understanding is that when developing/tuning an engine, there is always a three way balance between power, efficiency and emissions.

There is a lot that can be done to improve all three, but ultimately there is always a trade off and even then there are trade offs between individual aspects of those three.

Emission regulations are primarily focused on the emissions that are directly bad for people's health. Carbon Monoxide, Nitrogen Oxides and Particulate Matter.

If the registrations prioritised Carbon Dioxide emissions, then manufacturers engine tunes could well be a lot more efficient.

Correct, plus you need to have 4 or 6 models in the range to maximise sales, and ppl buy on quoted hp. Eg "I need a 100hp tractor" - if there's only a 90 and a 130hp in the range, they'll go elsewhere.

 

[Nenuphar]

Correct, plus you need to have 4 or 6 models in the range to maximise sales, and ppl buy on quoted hp. Eg "I need a 100hp tractor" - if there's only a 90 and a 130hp in the range, they'll go elsewhere.

Are there any examples of tractor models that can gain significant benefits from remapping? I know there are some huge gains to be made from certain 30 series degrees but that also involves some modifications to the engine/cooling

 

[czechmate]

Are there any examples of tractor models that can gain significant benefits from remapping? I know there are some huge gains to be made from certain 30 series degrees but that also involves some modifications to the engine/cooling

My 6140 (140 hp) Deutz is supposed to be « significant « (depending on definition I suppose). Being done on Wednesday

 

[Wellytrack]

It would be the cooling pack and it’s limitations I’d be concerned with if upping the and a front mower too.

 

[clbarclay]

Are there any examples of tractor models that can gain significant benefits from remapping? I know there are some huge gains to be made from certain 30 series degrees but that also involves some modifications to the engine/cooling

Unless you need lots of pto power or pulling a high speed cultivator, etc. the gains in peak power might not maintain benefits.

I'm considering getting a couple of tractors remapped. The one is a 30 series Deere is mostly just to deal with EGR issues. The other is an R series, which has no engine faults as such, but is gutless at low revs. Both already have more max power than I need, but both have much narrower rev ranges between peak torque and peak power than the 00 series. All three have power/auto quad gearboxes, but the 00 has the nicest power curve for driving around, despite being the least powerful.

 

[czechmate]

It would be the cooling pack and it’s limitations I’d be concerned with if upping the and a front mower too.

TBH, I was thinking just 5% plus would be fine

 

[clbarclay]

All tractors have had their low end torque limited to avoid black smoke at low revs and meet emission regs.

Some still claim to have peak torque down around 1200rpm, but if you compare torque curves, they are all clipped bellow around 1500rpm. Some just flatten out, while others drop off much quicker than others.

 

[PSQ]

But had me thinking, “why don’t they map them properly in the first place?”.

Is yours the biggest in the series already?

Many tractors in a range are very similar in physical design, if not identical, the only real difference is the tune on the ECU, the badge on the side of the bonnet, and the increasing price as you go up the range.

There are of course some series with extras like bigger cooling packs as you progress up the numbers, and famously some additions to stop them going bang, like the under piston oil squirters on Buhler Versatile New Holland 8770's and bigger that weren't found on the 8670's. Chipped 8670's didn't last long...

 

[czechmate]

Is yours the biggest in the series already?

Many tractors in a range are very similar in physical design, if not identical, the only real difference is the tune on the ECU, the badge on the side of the bonnet, and the increasing price as you go up the range.

There are of course some series with extras like bigger cooling packs as you progress up the numbers, and famously some additions to stop them going bang, like the under piston oil squirters on Buhler Versatile New Holland 8770's and bigger that weren't found on the 8670's. Chipped 8670's didn't last long...

No. It’s not the biggest in the series.