Sheep and copper

[Norfolk Hill Farmer]

Our grass / land is short of copper and high in molybdenum ,and other antagonists, always give the sheep mineral drenches containing copper, but not convinced any of them stay in the the system for more than a fortnight ,let alone 3 months as some manufacturers claim .
Considering using Boluses containing copper ( likely ,Mayo 5 in one ) but I am always concerned about giving too much copper.

My questions / scenarios to the forum are.

If a ewe had a Boluses inside her , and then some feed you gave to her ,contained some natural copper, could this make an overdose problem ?

If the Boluses last 6 months, but to give continues cover you Boluses again ,or drench with copper , at say 5 and a half months, for a short time the ewe has a double dose , could this make a problem ?

TIA
NHF

 

[neilo]

I guess a lot would depend on breed tolerance to copper and levels of copper, molybdenum & other antagonists.

I certainly wouldn't be concerned about bolusing at 5 months giving a double dose, the level supplied will have tailed off a bit by then. I have high moly here and my pedigree Beltex sheep get copper, albeit at a lower dose than the other breeds here.

As for any drench manufacturer claiming any TE in their product is lasting for 3 months, ask them to provide proof, and treat every other claim they make as from the same bullpoo factory.

 

[Farmer Fin]

Excess copper that is not antagonised in the rumen will be absorbed by the sheep and stored in the liver for release when the blood stream is short of copper. The issue is the liver doesn’t know when to stop storing copper and that’s when you end up with toxicity.

As no one knows how much copper is going to be available to your sheep from back ground / supplements then only way you are going to know is by doing liver samples. Get some livers back from the abattoir (normally an easy process) and send them to Nottingham Uni vet lab. It will cost a few hundred pounds but will give you an informed answer far more than you can get from a mineral rep or even on here.

 

[Norfolk Hill Farmer]

I guess a lot would depend on breed tolerance to copper and levels of copper, molybdenum & other antagonists.

I certainly wouldn't be concerned about bolusing at 5 months giving a double dose, the level supplied will have tailed off a bit by then. I have high moly here and my pedigree Beltex sheep get copper, albeit at a lower dose than the other breeds here.

As for any drench manufacturer claiming any TE in their product is lasting for 3 months, ask them to provide proof, and treat every other claim they make as from the same bullpoo factory.

What do you use on the beltex to give a lower dose ?

 

[Bones]

Laying hen manure is very high in copper, if you can get your hands on it,

 

[Norfolk Hill Farmer]

Excess copper that is not antagonised in the rumen will be absorbed by the sheep and stored in the liver for release when the blood stream is short of copper. The issue is the liver doesn’t know when to stop storing copper and that’s when you end up with toxicity.

As no one knows how much copper is going to be available to your sheep from back ground / supplements then only way you are going to know is by doing liver samples. Get some livers back from the abattoir (normally an easy process) and send them to Nottingham Uni vet lab. It will cost a few hundred pounds but will give you an informed answer far more than you can get from a mineral rep or even on here.

That's an approach that could be very useful. I would have thought you would only be able to get a sample from your cull ewes ,and not those that are in lamb or lactating, making a truly representative sample difficult to get.

 

[neilo]

What do you use on the beltex to give a lower dose ?

I normally give a 2g (lamb) copper capsule, instead of a 4g (ewe) one. If i’m Using bolused that contain (4g) copper, i’ll Get a few that don’t have it in and give alongside a 2g capsule.

 

[Farmer Fin]

That's an approach that could be very useful. I would have thought you would only be able to get a sample from your cull ewes ,and not those that are in lamb or lactating, making a truly representative sample difficult to get.

You can get from lactating and pregnant but that means live samples which is more costly. As with all things it’s a trade off. The best approach is cull ewes which have just been weaned. That way if low there has been an in issue and time to rectify before tupping

 

[Brisel]

Laying hen manure is very high in copper, if you can get your hands on it,

Pig manure/slurry has even more

 

[J428TGS]

smart trace 24.7 boulus is what i use in all sheep every 6 mts, seems to work well

 

[pgk]

I normally give a 2g (lamb) copper capsule, instead of a 4g (ewe) one. If i’m Using bolused that contain (4g) copper, i’ll Get a few that don’t have it in and give alongside a 2g capsule.

Do the same with texel and texel crosses, 4g for woolshedders.

 

[polk_farmer]

Does high moly have an adverse effect on copper then? Were all white face here (lleyn and nz texel) so I don’t even like mentioning the word copper

 

[Norfolk Hill Farmer]

Molybdenum will lock up copper and make it unavailable.

 

[neilo]

Does high moly have an adverse effect on copper then? Were all white face here (lleyn and nz texel) so I don’t even like mentioning the word copper

Our soil/forage copper levels are not disastrously low, but our molybdenum levels are very high. As a result, I have had lambs actually dieing of copper deficiency (scouring to death with a light brown scour), as well as poor growth and fertility. If I supplement with copper, that side is sorted.
My sheep are pedigree Charollais, a few Beltex, and a commercial flock of Highlanders (NZ Texel x Romney), and crosses from them by NZ Texel, Charollais and Lleyn. All would verging on the good side as regards copper absorption, yet we still need to give copper. Many in the area are running Texel X ewes and supplementing copper one way or another.

 

[Farmer 83563]

Excess copper that is not antagonised in the rumen will be absorbed by the sheep and stored in the liver for release when the blood stream is short of copper. The issue is the liver doesn’t know when to stop storing copper and that’s when you end up with toxicity.

As no one knows how much copper is going to be available to your sheep from back ground / supplements then only way you are going to know is by doing liver samples. Get some livers back from the abattoir (normally an easy process) and send them to Nottingham Uni vet lab. It will cost a few hundred pounds but will give you an informed answer far more than you can get from a mineral rep or even on here.

SAC do a reasonably priced liver tissue analysis for cobalt, selenium and copper aswell

 

[Farmer 83563]

Our grass / land is short of copper and high in molybdenum ,and other antagonists, always give the sheep mineral drenches containing copper, but not convinced any of them stay in the the system for more than a fortnight ,let alone 3 months as some manufacturers claim .
Considering using Boluses containing copper ( likely ,Mayo 5 in one ) but I am always concerned about giving too much copper.

My questions / scenarios to the forum are.

If a ewe had a Boluses inside her , and then some feed you gave to her ,contained some natural copper, could this make an overdose problem ?

If the Boluses last 6 months, but to give continues cover you Boluses again ,or drench with copper , at say 5 and a half months, for a short time the ewe has a double dose , could this make a problem ?

TIA
NHF

we use 2g copper bolus in Tex/BFLxWelsh ewes with mid range liver copper levels. to lower toxicity risk we add E7 Molybdenum to the pre lambing ration to avoid overdoing copper in housed ewes. works for us

 

[Norfolk Hill Farmer]

Thanks for all the replies , this copper thing certainly is complex.

The cheleated drench I use delivers 40 mg of copper in a 10 ml dose, does anyone know why this amount in one go doesn't cause acute copper poisoning?

On the flip side of that , that's not much copper to last for the dosing interval they recommend. Also tho dose for an under 25 kg lamb is 10 ml and an over 20 kg is 20ml, seems a big jump and not much thought or even science behind it.

 

[Farmer Fin]

Thanks for all the replies , this copper thing certainly is complex.

The cheleated drench I use delivers 40 mg of copper in a 10 ml dose, does anyone know why this amount in one go doesn't cause acute copper poisoning?

On the flip side of that , that's not much copper to last for the dosing interval they recommend. Also tho dose for an under 25 kg lamb is 10 ml and an over 20 kg is 20ml, seems a big jump and not much thought or even science behind it.

There will be very little science behind it.

With your drench not all the copper will be absorb by the sheep a fair proportion will past straight through as the animals physically can not absorb it or bound to other antagonists.

 

[Farmer Fin]

Apparently acute copper poisoning can occur with a dose of 20mg per kg of sheep.

I.e your 20kg lamb getting 400mg. Also depends on breed etc.