Smaller farms

[Anonymous...]

Without starting a willy waving fight, what size farm will provide a living , now forget new car and holidays , but a getting by with piece and quiet
Upland grass, sheep or sheep and a few beef
I can make a do off 110 acres ( wife works) land is all owned, not inherited

 

[DRC]

Depends on a lot of factors. Having children can be expensive. Once they leave home the amount of money you need gets a lot less.
Also what does the partner do, £100k a year job or £15k. I suspect on 110 acres of sheep, you have plenty of time to grow your own veg etc and work off farm.

 

[opininionated]

It's not so much size that matters, it's what you do with it!
A small farm producing a niche product selling directly to the public can be very profitable, but just how much of that profit is made from 'farming' and how much is made from 'marketing' is another question.

 

[jellybean]

100 acres deer farm has done me ok for the last 27 years, as Montydog says getting by with a peaceful existence in a lovely place. I suppose it helps that there is not much out there that I hanker after; I have everything here.

 

[GTB]

How long is a piece of string? As said, children can be a financial drain as can an extravagant lifestyle. It's taken me many years to realise but I've finally got it, there's no such thing as economy of scale. IME the more land you have, the more staff and machinery you need and they all wear out faster. Certainly in our case when we were farming on a smaller scale we had more time for enjoyment. Now it's rush, rush, rush. Having said that, most jobs are easier with two or three at it. Especially moving livestock across roads etc etc

 

[Anonymous...]

We get late grass hence majority of cows sold on as wintering was expensive, now we have 200 chev/ Hedrick ewes and 10 Galloway cows, I am watching grass through this year and will adjust sheep numbers to suit ( hopefully up the numbers)
Mrs works on average wage , kids grown up and just left uni, although they get worse as they get older!!

 

[Dry Rot]

Location, location, location.

Lots of small farms in Scotland that we call crofts. They seem to do OK but do get substantial government support. On the other hand, location is usually against them. A croft could be 1/2 acre or 5,000 acres. It's more of a status thing -- as they say, "A small piece of land sarrounded by legislation". But it does work. I'm a small farmer but not a crofter, though I could opt to be one. Living in poverty is an art acquired by long practice! I choose not to take the government's shilling and in return get (relatively) left in peace.

 

[spin cycle]

fascinating thread....130ac...100 of which owned....switching from arable to sheep.....20 ac in stewardship or diy livery.....so 110 ac which i'm thinking i'll run 160-200 ewes.....but we also have a holiday cottage and residential let...mrs spin works part time...3 kids...one at uni...one in sixth form...one starting high school sept

i used to work off farm but had to pack it in when parents got to old help....spend some time looking after widowed mum now.....don't know why ppl think smaller have lots spare time.....i do virtually everything from accounts through to unblocking house drains....big problem for me is being disrupted

making do with elderly machines is becoming an obsession/hobby though i do get a bit depressed seeing outputs quoted on here,,,,with my vermeer baler in bits i had to get the old welgar out friday for some hay....after some 'battlefield engineering' i got baling at the princely rate of 6 bales/hour.......mind you she did only cost 1200 quid over 20 yrs ago and she wasn't exactly pristine when i got her

 

[Anonymous...]

Location, location, location.

Lots of small farms in Scotland that we call crofts. They seem to do OK but do get substantial government support. On the other hand, location is usually against them. A croft could be 1/2 acre or 5,000 acres. It's more of a status thing -- as they say, "A small piece of land sarrounded by legislation". But it does work. I'm a small farmer but not a crofter, though I could opt to be one. Living in poverty is an art acquired by long practice! I choose not to take the government's shilling and in return get (relatively) left in peace.

One of the reasons for asking .., were in Pennines , it's wet , late grass, and heavy clay
Looked at a small farm in South Scotland, seemed to have plenty of grass and if we sold it would be a cash buy with change BUT Mrs may not find work

 

[Kidds]

I can make a do off 110 acres ( wife works) land is all owned, not inherited

Depends what you do. I reckon I could easy get by on a tenth of that acreage and plenty could do so on even less. One acre of high value stuff would give you a good living.

 

[Anonymous...]

Depends what you do. I reckon I could easy get by on a tenth of that acreage and plenty could do so on even less. One acre of high value stuff would give you a good living.

Can't grow veg etc grass is very late, grows beef well but hellish cost overwinter hence upping sheep

 

[7610 super q]

I always think 2-300 acres is an ' awkward ' size. Too big to run on a shoestring, yet not enough to warrant decent kit. As said you could make a decent living growing fruit/veg/free range hens on 20 acres......but you need to be near POPULATION.

 

[YorkshireAndrew]

No Bossfarmer here yet , must be having a lie in . [emoji10]

 

[DRC]

I take my hat off to you, making a living with 200 sheep and 10 cows, and you've raised a family . This definitely flies in the face of everyone saying you neeed hundreds of acres and hundreds of animals.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I always think 2-300 acres is an ' awkward ' size. Too big to run on a shoestring, yet not enough to warrant decent kit. As said you could make a decent living growing fruit/veg/free range hens on 20 acres......but you need to be near POPULATION.

I'd have to completely agree with that.
We've got 110 acres here, and it's all lifestyle.
400 acres is starting to get pretty serious, especially for you guys with the ever helpful public leaving gates open and disrupting play.
But as you rightly said, that's more farming as we know it, you can make a sweet living and employ heaps of labour etc here from an orchard or that sort of thing and not have very many acres at all! Probably 10 acres of apricots would kick me into touch for net profit, but the workload would be 30 times what I do.

 

[Anonymous...]

I take my hat off to you, making a living with 200 sheep and 10 cows, and you've raised a family . This definitely flies in the face of everyone saying you neeed hundreds of acres and hundreds of animals.

I have been an engineer since leaving school
Grew up in south lakes and hearts always been in farming, it took until 6 yrs ago to get our land but we did it, , I am 53 in July so hundreds of acres would be beyond me, however we have grown from 30 to 110
After a working life in heavy engineering and running a service & repaired business , I find farming is a brilliant way of life , yes I won't be rich but I am more than happy with my lot
A reason we are looking to move is to be ringfenced
Our land is currently in 3 lots and house separate

 

[multi power]

I grew up on 60 acres, never ever went to bed hungry or had to go to school in bare feet

 

[roscoe erf]

.....but you need to be near POPULATION.

With that brings its own unique issues but that's a whole other thread personally I'd rather be broke and in the hills

 

[Pan mixer]

Quite a lot of it is down to the McCawber principle - income 20, spending 19.5, result happiness. Income 20, spending 20.5, result misery.

Dickens knew what he was on about.

Being near the population has a lot of drawbacks, I have a busy B road running through my farmyard, but it brings customers as well as burglars, vegetarian protesters, speeding, noisy cars and bikes etc.

Some of the people that pass by are quite nice.

 

[ladycrofter]

One of the reasons for asking .., were in Pennines , it's wet , late grass, and heavy clay
Looked at a small farm in South Scotland, seemed to have plenty of grass and if we sold it would be a cash buy with change BUT Mrs may not find work

A great thread.

Keep in mind you would be working under a different ag system, not sure how DEFRA and SGRPID compare but would be worth a look before crossing the border.

We often have this discussion, especially just now as the new insurance quote arrived . How much land is enough? - I think the purchase and running of machinery is one of the big issues, and like, you we're not talking about shiny new stuff. We are on about 20 acres (croft, good south-facing pasture, but similar to you, wet cold can't outwinter cattle). The equipment and buildings we need would just as well service 100 acres or more. As would the cost of the insurance! - buildings, machinery, tools/workshop, liability, etc. etc. Some machinery can be forgone e.g. we now have a contractor do the haylage and cost is only slightly more than us doing it ourselves, so we sold the mower, turner, baler, therefore also less time and money required for machinery maintenance. But on the whole most work is cheaper to do yourself and more importantly you can do it when suits.

It is fairly easy to look at the return on livestock itself because there is so much information available on costs, and things pretty much run within a narrow band depending upon weather and such. Like how many bales of straw and haylage you need to get a cow through the winter, and a rough estimate of an average cost per head for vet fees, bolusing, worming, etc. Also for fieldwork - how much fert/lime you want per acre, how much fencing you want to replace - a phone call and you have a price. Plus it is easy enough to look at the mart results for buying and selling prices.

Looking after machinery is the bugbear. What is going to break? How much preventative maintenance do you do? I'm sure I would faint if I added up the cost of oil and filters, welding rods, etc. we use over a 5-year period. I think these are some of the invisible costs that are hard to put a finger on and can be pretty upredictable, especially when you want a per head cost.